The Steel Guitar Forum

why is it so hard to find instruction for the steel that takes a beginer from the begining to a point that he /she can play on their own..i have seen most of whats out there and most of it is (1) hard to understand (2) assumes you already know more than you do (3) is poorly written (4) the so called instructor just wants to show off instead of really teaching
and just to really top it off if someone asks how to tune it they will get 25 differant answers<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 04 January 2006 at 02:17 PM.]</p></FONT>

calvin, you are exactly right. Most of the steel courses out there do NOT teach cumulative knowledge. They are lick oriented without examples of context. The only cunulative knowledge course I've seen is the Emmons Series courses by Steve Palousek. They teach you in a building block fashion.

I am a beginner also, I have purchased several instructional courses. I really like Jeff Newmans video courses. http://www.jeffran.com/ here is his web site if you have not already tried this I highly recommend his material.

Calvin.
By your spelling I don't know if you qualify
to have a decent steel teacher.Your crap statement about no-one, you can find for a newbie teacher.I have devoted my time helping newbies, without showing off.I make helping Cd's, in 32 countries, mostly Europe.
I don't advertise on the forum. Plenty do. But I have been on many times(free) helping with little thanks.A good teacher would dump you with that attitude.
But. I hope you find someone.I still enjoy seeing a newbie catch on a little. One teacher Cannot take a person to far. It takes many.
Even players of twenty years get a little lost when you explain,a Maj.7th for instance.
Where it is used , what it takes the place of,the two minor system on turnarounds,and so on.The ones that learn, learn overnight , after years of practice.The learning comes from Within, after the training.Sounds like a new song .
I wish you well though. All newbies are not like you.Some are a pleasure that I cannot explain.
Bill mayville (steelinlasvegas@cox.net) www.steelguitarlasvegas.com

I cannot find a teacher in the major metropolitan area where i live and am considering driving three hours to the next metropolis to try and get a lesson. Thats three hours..each way ...for an hour lesson.

I just want someone to look at what I'm doing and say "whoa, you better change this now or your in for trouble down the road" or "you are on the right track, now try this...". NOTHING beats personal instruction.

That said, Bruce Boutons video has taught me alot, and Winnie Winstons book was great for theory even if I never played steel again. Thats about all i know as far as instruction materials go, but they are ALOT better than what I had growin up as a kid for 6 string guitar. I got Mel bays chord chart the other day tho, and I swear you need a masters in nuclear physics to decypher the thing...maybe someday I will iunderstand all those dots and triangles...hehehe

Try the Paul Franklin courses. I also would suggest the Bruce Bouton video, and although I've only seen a C6th version, Bobbe Seymore's courses seem well received.

Take the frustraion with a grain of salt, it comes with the instrument, but well worth sticking it out.

Have fun.


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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Is is possible that trying, let's say 10-12 different instructional courses by like number of authors.........is actually doing more harm than good?

No two, teach alike. Their various methods might just well be in total conflict with one another.

Is it possible that trying to teach an adult newbie is more difficult since some courses try to cram things like the circle of 5ths, minors, majors, sevenths and diminishes and augmenteds plus vague theory into their brain that is already overwhelmed with just getting along with work, family and bills?

Trying to teach flying is MOST DIFFICULT when that same adult can go out and buy a great motorcycle or boat for less money and be operating it within just few short hours. WHereas flying, will take some forty hours bare minimum to accomplish that kind of success then you are only qualified as a beginner.

STUDENTS should be willing to make a long-term commitment to learning. Start with one course and stick with it for the long haul. Only after knowing how to install picks on their fingers, what kind of picks they want, what kind of strings they want, guitars, etc. and able to read some form of tableture, should they even consider writing to the FORUM and getting 4,000 different views on what "next step" to take.

I've found the majority of steel guitar students I've encountered have too little time to practice and are uncommitted to making the time/effort to learn to do it right.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 04 January 2006 at 04:24 PM.]</p></FONT>

i am not saying that it can't be done, what i am saying is: for a newbee just coming to the steel its hard and expensive to sort thru the garbage to find a path to where they want to be ....many times i have been told don't just copy the tabs, you want to develop your own style ....WRONG we want to sound like the music we grew up with. we will worry about things like our own style later ...much later oh and by the way mr. mayville you have solicited me many times from this very forum

Calvin,
There's lots of good courses out there, it's just a matter of taking the time with any of them.

Oh yeah, some time back just out of the clear blue sky a gentleman sent me an instructional cd [for free] even though I've been playing at this thing for several years, and the cd was really quite basic, I'm still learning things from that one cd.

The gentleman who sent it to me is Mr. Bill Mayville in Las Vegas!

I quess what I'm trying to say is you can't breeze through a course in a week and expect to get all of what the instructer is trying to teach you, it takes time.

Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

many times on this forum i have heard that we need new players..in order to have new players you have to have some standards for them to follow . i know that there is a hundred ways to play any song but if there were a standard way first, then after we/they have mastered that. then we could add our own flavor to it. but first we need someone to to guide us down a common path i AM NOT saying this or that person is a bad teacher they just need to find a step by step way for all to follow <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 04 January 2006 at 05:00 PM.]</p></FONT>

If this was easy everyone would do it! I have about 1 year of making a racket, LOL. Everything in life is not easy. I agree with the fact of using different teaching material, I have Dewitt Scott, Dick Meis, Joe Wright and Herb S. from Austin. All have good points and weak points. We all have different commitment levels. Mine is I practice about 1 hour at least 4 days a week. This is the minimum. During the holidays a lot more. If you really want to learn you will find a way. I am blessed and have Jim Harper who gives me pointers as he can. I am going to become a member of Oklahoma SGA. With Roger Osburn and John Buffington group in the Tulsa area. They are 4 hours away. That's one way. Again if you want it bad enough you will make the effort. My 2 cent worth is spend more time working on basics and less time Complaining.

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Thomas SD10 3/4 and D10 8/5 Beginner

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by John Coffman on 04 January 2006 at 05:02 PM.]</p></FONT>

I don't think pedal steel is a good instrument on which to start playing music. A good basic knowledge of guitar and music theory is a must, IMO. I spent many years playing guitar before starting the pedals, and when I sat down for the first time at the steel I could at least pick out where the triads were located. From there it was practice, practice, practice. Brouce Bouton is great, as is Jeff Newman and Doug Beaumier. All have helped me fill up a bag of tricks.

Of course, I'm lucky enough to be gigging all the time, which really forces me to apply the techniques of these talented players while breaking some of my own ground in the meantime.

Calvin
As a teacher and also a producer of steel courses, I understand your frustration. My answer is that I know of no course you can buy that would replace even one or two private, one-on-one lessons with a competent steel teacher.

So much of playing is really elementary; do you hold your elbows close to your torso or incorrectly stick them out in the air? Is your right hand position correct or dreadful? Do you slant the bar and don't know anything about parallax view? Do you center your body at the 15th fret? Vibrato, etc? Etc., etc.

Each individual teacher or creator of this stuff makes certain assumptions as to the proficiency levels of their customers.

Some tab tell the player to mimic a physical motion without any musical explanation. Other tabs teach the player what the pedals do musically, which is another level of complication for the student.

When I teach privately to a rank beginner student, I use Scotty's Pedal Steel Method by Mel Bay. This is about as basic as you can get, but if a student is THAT basic, he absolutely needs a private instructor.

Some of Jeff Newman's videos are very basic, as are Joe Wright's. But again, they're videos, not private lessons.

I stress that in my courses, it's arranged for experienced beginners and intermediate students. Rank beginners, with little musical experience, will find them somewhat challenging.

IMHO, here's the learning environment. From rank beginner to experienced beginner, the greatest leaps come from private instruction augmented by video/CD/tab courses. Once a player reaches intermediate level, he learns best from being on a bandstand or playing with other players of the same and slightly better level, augmented with courses.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Herb really said it best and he's had a lot of time behind the steel. I would take his advice to heart.

One things for sure, the steel is not an easy instrument to play, even for guys who have a lot of 6 string background, although it does help, it will take time and dedication and you may still not learn everything there is to know.

It will become easier the more you work at it. As far as hearing licks on the records and playing them, but it does take time and not all steels are set up the same,some players have a different approach with pedals and knee levers and what strings to raise and lower.

Some steels have one knee lever and some have as many as 8 or 9. Just keep an open mind and try to find a really good steel player like Herb suggested and that will help you a lot and Scotty's book is a great place to begin or at least try some of Herb's material. Soon you will want to explore a lot of different players styles.

Just hang with with, it's a very cool instrument that will actually "give back" and after you've played on the bandstand with it, you'll know what I taking about.

Calvin, I understand your frustration finding the right instruction courses. I have tried the videos and just don't like them. I have gotten very good courses from Scotty, and Herb Steiner. Very simple amd straight foward. I don't think your throwing any crap out there. I would like to see one of Mr. Mayville's courses to see if my spelling is good enough to try one!!!

Calvin, what you are stating makes very good sense, but there are a few other issues going on as well.

I have a very few simple tabbed courses out there , I don't know if you are referring to me or not but I can assure you not one of them has been produced with the purpose of showing off. I am not at a SHOW OFF level of playing..it's that simple...

The first thing a teacher or ONE WHO WRITES a program has to do is determine who it is they are directing( marketing) the program to. If the program is way too basic everyone will complain and want a refund..if they make it to difficult you leave out the early players segment.

I can assure you, nobody who takes the time to put together a program is running and laughing all the way to the bank.

I purchased a program from one of the PRO's at St Louis..and I was totally dissappointed..it wa SO Basic to the point that I listened to the tape one time and just played it.. I was hoping for a real workout...

IF folks are purchasing TAB prgrams and expecting to learn by them alone that is going to be a difficult task. Herb has clearly stated the appropriate case above.

Programs are costly and timely to put together and most will tell you, it aint for the paycheck..It's a labor of love..not the cash..

Here it is in a nutshell..Jeff Newmans introduction courses are probably the best..Joe Wright has some very very good entry level programs, I think Herb has some very entry level programs as well......Paul Franklins programs and most everyone elses DO REQUIRE some up front knowledge and understanding, this includes Herbs fine programs as well..

These guys are not showing off..they are sharing and putting out there some very valuable tools to hopefully advance from where you are..they may not start at point A, but they can get you from point B to point D or even E...

I had a fellow purchase a program from me a few months back, he purchased it with a full understanding it was full TAB with an audio CD. Well he complained and threatened nasty EBAY feedback because it was not a DVD..I called him , gave him a full refund including postage, and told him to keep the package. He told me he needed a DVD course because he needed to learn how to play this Instrument very quickly, like within a a few weeks,he had gigs lined up, and that a CD was useless to him, he needed a DVD..He complained not just about me but about ALL the courses that are NOT on DVD..he said all teachers were ripping him off..I just said, well not me, I gave you a full refund, and I am not capable of helping you, sorry..

It's just not that easy...

The "teacher" as you put it..has time, passion, energy and experience into each of there projects with the hopes of someone getting something out of it..and...maybe they will get lucky and break even..like I said, labor of love...

Hope ya find what it is you are needin, Newman , Wright or Herb is where I would go...

good luck

t<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2006 at 06:08 AM.]</p></FONT>

maybe i'm not being as clear as i should be, what i am trying to get across is that with all the many years of experence that is out there ( and on here ) there should be a standard format to the way steel is taught
as far as pratice goes i would be willing to bet that i fit into the top 10% here on the hours per day/ week praticing NOT the top 10 % of good players haha... i average 4-8 hours per day 7 days a week

If you're practicing 4-8 hrs. a day.
You are practicing too much.

Check out Bobbie Seymore's video: "How to Practice". Lots of sound practical advice.

Hang in there, sounds to me like you have the desire. The desire to learn will help pull you through the "bumps in the road".

Leo Fender once told me to forget about the guitar and take piano lesson untill I knew music completely. Then go back to the steel. But first he said," learn what you are doing ". I ignored he and I sure regret it. I was 17 at the time.

A standard format ? Well that sounds reasonable but it is still not a perfect world.

a little long, sorry..

I have had students ( guitar and steel) here at the house who could easliy play by TAB and sound good..but when it came time to discuss the theoretical elements of what they were playing they had no idea. I could have spent days just talking about the relationships of notes or scales and equate them to number values, some did not get it..still don't. But yet they are seeking the ability to become a Guitar player or Steel player.

Did you know that a Guitar, with the exception of the 2nd string ,is tuned in 4ths? One student friend asked..Whats that mean ?

We spent some time just talking about it..it clicked..he went home and asked a player friend of his the same question, his friend who had been playing for years and plays in bands said..thats a waste of time knowing that stuff..

I think not..

the point here was we talked about relationships of 4ths..and we played a few tunes,AKA rock tunes Blues tunes..it took him maybe another day or two to totally understand he could now play ANY 3 chord Rock or Blues tune in any key..and know why he was doing it..from there he just understood / learned position playing etc...Even though he could still not play specific songs note for note,he now knew how to listen and break them down into the progression. That took him like a day or two...but not until he understood the concept of the Guitar tuning.

The easiset teaching format would be to assume a buyer/student knows nothing..start at ground zero..discuss MUSIC theory..there are a million books out there on this subject alone without even discussing a specific Instrument,but if the new student does not click with the theory issue..there will be no going forward..especially with this Instrument.. How would a program writer know if the student can follow along other than a one on one lesson.? There has to be a few assumptions.

EXAMPLE:..Pedal Steel..3rd fret..open positon no pedals, Root..AB pedals down , 4th, B Pedal with the E Lower lever ='s the 5 Seven Chord..all without moving the bar. "A" pedal alone, relative minor, 2nd sting half tone ='s root 7th..

ok lets name them in order .G,C,D7, E minor, G7..all from the open position..

Now lets assign # values,1,4,5-7th,6 minor,1- 7th .

Lets jump up to the 10th fret and build this excercise from the AB pedals down positiion..

10th fret AB Pedal Root, 8th fret open 4th, 10th fret open 5th , 9th fret E lower lever Relative minor..8th fret B pedal and E lower lever root 7th..

in name, G,C D, E minor and G 7..1,4,5,6 minor, 1-7th..

same thing..different place...

Now I am not stating that this little excercise is the KNOW IT all..but it is one we all should know and understand..I mean REALLY know. My thinking is that the above conversation is a given by those that are writing programs..otherwise they would never be able to get past page 1 in the program.

Steel guitar courses , actually all Instrument courses I believe are a suppliment to another form or style of training, education etc...When youi go take Piano lessons they sell you a Primer book then step 1 book..but it is the real live teacher who guides you through it..

I have met a few early players who were moving from Guitar or Bass to the Steel and have actually been in bands..but did not understand the conversation above. They could not apply any former Instrument exposure..

Considering the Pedal Steel was really developed with theoretical relationships of Strings , Pedals and knee lever changes ( standard tunings ) it would be hard pressed to advance as a player without understanding the most basic elements of theory..

I'm not stating that this is the case here, but I can say that this is probably assumed by everyone and anyone who produces a program.

If theory is an issue I would sit with a Piano tecaher for a few weeks in conversation alone. Many years back after playing Guitar for almost 20 years, I decided to step it up a notch, I contacted Link Chamberlain ( now deceased) who was a GURU Guitar player teacher in the Northeast..I told him what I wanted to do and he said lets do it..at $50 an hour..( early 80's) The first three lessons he told me to leave my guitar home..he needed to build a new reference..and he did..

I recommend any local Steeler, or anyone within a 100 miles where you can go for 2 or 3 hours just to get over the hump. Maybe contact one of the fine players in Nashville, Joe Wright, Mike Sweeney etc,
,go to town for a few days set up a few lessons , see the sights, listen to some music and I can almost guarantee..the hump will get knocked down.

Keep the faith

the first thing every student must have is the Desire...practicing 4 or 5 hours per day is not a bad thing but you should be practicing the appropriate things.Only a one on one teacher can assist with that..

t<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2006 at 05:27 AM.]</p></FONT>

Tony tells a good story--the guy who needed a DVD to learn pedal steel in a couple of weeks. I can't imagine what he was thinking. After two weeks, I could use the A pedal and the B pedal. Together! And that's about it.

Ray's right; like learning to fly, it's easier to go out a buy a guitar instead of taking years to learn pedal steel.

I think you're asking a sincere question, and I don't take it as 'attitude.' It's just not easy.
I just took on a guitarist who wants to learn the basics of jazz piano. We've spent one lesson going over the relationships of notes. I tried to do too much, showing him the use of passing tones in getting from one chord to another. It's a lot to work with, but it's necessary. I second Tony's suggestion to spend time getting to know theory on the piano. Music theory, whether country or jazz, is the same. The sound of changing intervals needs to become part of your hearing so that it can be applied to steel.

Unfortunately, there isn't a standard method. I go about it differently than others, as we all do. I did a lot of reading on the forum before I started learning on the instrument. So take your time. In setting out to master steel, don't let it master you. Like the sitar, it's a lifelong journey.

Calvin Join the hard knox of learning to play the Pedal steel Guitar. I have been 8 1/2 years and I'm still not there. I have a problem with the timing and cord changes. I'm slowly but surely getting there. I do not play with rythum tracks and that is my biggest mistake. Now I'm starting to play with the Tracks and it is slowly comming to me.It is a long drawn out thing to play and we all get up set with the Steel guitar. So like I said join the party.
Sam White

<SMALL>for a newbee just coming to the steel its hard and expensive to sort thru the garbage to find a path to where they want to be </SMALL>

Unfortunately, this instrument is one of the most difficult to begin to figure out, let alone master. Learning it by accident could take 1000 years. With lessons, the time is somewhat less.
Study tunes, look at guitar chord books and see where the progressions go and what chord patterns work. Then learn where the chords are on the deck.

Calvin, unlike a piano, or guitar, the PSG copedant can be set up in so many different ways. Have you ever tried to play someone elses PSG? It's hard to do unless you've been at it for a while. I know for a fact that there is alot of GREAT imformation out there for us. Which one is best? Each has something to offer. I recently had a lesson with Mike Sweeney, about 3.5 hours for me to travel to Nashville. Was it worth it? BIG TIME! What he instructed me to work on ranged from beginner to intermediate level. There were some key areas where I needed to develop my proficiency. Like Herb said above, right hand, arms, RELAXATION while playing, left hand technique, etc. I don't think this could be provided via written, or recorded material. I have used several instructional courses; each had its merits. BUT, having had a 6-8 hr Bootcamp with Mike, it was the best thing I've acted on to develop my playing. He sent me away with SPECIFIC exercises. I can do most everything we went over during my lesson. Have I got it figured out? NO! But, I'm getting there slowly. I've made some significant improvements over the last 3 weeks. Will I go back again? YES! MY GOAL is to be ready to schedule another lesson with Mike in mid February. If I'm not ready, I'll delay it until I am proficient at what he instructed me to work on.

These "teachers" have logged more hours of practice than you can imagine. Most are competent in their music theory as well; I'm not. So, I am working on that as I practice. Thank God I'm only 49! If I live to be a 100, I might be pretty good. Get a teacher, quit thinking there should be another way and practice. I've tried to take your route and it is a dead end.

Finally, establish realistic goals. Accept the fact that you have chosen the least understood instrument on the planet. It's also the most diverse and "IT AIN'T EASY". Remember, steel players like to share their knowledge. I haven't met a show off yet! Most of the BIG NAME players have always been generous, supportive and kind to me when I've had the opportunity to interact with them. Don't bite the hand that can feed you! Good luck to you.

i am a self tought player not really good yet but i can get along with what i do. i found bruce bouton's tape very helpful and i have gotten a lot of material (tabsheets) from scotty's in st louis that was very helpful. basicly bruce said it all on his tape. there are no short cuts your just going to have to find your own way. the more you pratice the better you will become. i have tried to get someone local to teach me but not any luck there. so i had to learn on my own. i am not into country music so its a little different. if your instructor is trying to show off his tallent then its time to find another teacher. doc

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if its not a zum steel it isn't real
just trying to steel for the Lord>