Are all PS players tone freaks?

Alex Piazza · Post by **Alex Piazza** » 18 Nov 2005 6:26 am

When I first started playing live I had the privelidge to go hang out back stage with george jones' band. Me and my buddy were geeking out on their gear. I asked why the pedal steel player was using two amps. I cant remember exactly what was said but the guys in the band laughed, sort of making fun of the guy and all ps players in general for being finicky and tone crazy. Well its been 3 or 4 years and Ive picked up the steel guitar along the road. I just realized the other day that I have become that guy. Are we a different breed? Does the PS guitar make people snoby or to picky?

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 18 Nov 2005 7:08 am

Yessirreee!
I set my Profex II to Lloyd's or Big E's settings, and I still don't get there...
I still sound like a transistor radio inside of a pillow under a blanket with a cat laying on it.
"To dream the impossible dream...[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 18 November 2005 at 07:11 AM.]

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 18 Nov 2005 7:31 am

It's been my experience that any musician on any instrument is a tone freak.

Ron Scott · Post by **Ron Scott** » 18 Nov 2005 7:44 am

I know from my 2 cents worth is that I just want to hear the steel sounding real full and in both ears.When I practice I use one amp but when I used to play out I used 2 amps.RS

------------------
Franklin Guitars

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Nov 2005 9:15 am

Does the PS guitar make people snoby or to picky?

IMHO, it's not just pedal steel, it's a lot of instruments. I've seen pianists argue over the merits of a Steinway, a Baldwin, or a Bosendorfer. I run into guitar players that are simply obsessed with Stevie Ray Vaughn's tone. They find something other-worldly or "magical" in his sound. Personally, I don't get it. I've heard a hundred guitar player's that had "that sound", or even a better one! In my 45 years in this business, I've seen it a hundred times...when these "tone freaks" use gear identical to Stevie's (or Buddy's, for that matter), they really still don't sound anything like Stevie or Buddy.

Of course, they think their sound improves. And maybe, in some convoluted reality, that's enough.

Can't prove it by me, though.

You can't "buy" the sound, you have to make it!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Nov 2005 9:20 am

For over half a century hundreds of manufacturers have made thousands of amps, guitars, and accessories designed to give good tone of all types for regular guitar. There is a huge choice in any music store, and it is easy to find good tone and forget about the issue. In contrast, only a handful of manufacturers of guitars and amps caters to the small steel community; and there are very few showrooms where you can try a lot of equipment. There is not a lot of choice, and satisfaction can be hard to find. In addition, our use of the volume pedal, and other aspects of the instrument cause a need for 2 to 4 times as much amplification to get the same volume level as 6-stringers. That eliminates the huge array of small to medium sized amps that serve regular guitar players so well. Finally, although the average 6-stringer can find equipment with satisfactory tone easily, the guitar magazines are full of equipment reviews and player interviews talking about tone, tone, tone. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 18 November 2005 at 09:21 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 18 Nov 2005 9:28 am

Many years ago I managed a small instrument shop, and I remember especially one guitarist who was obsessed with tone,- to the point where it became totally ridiculous.
When he needed new picks he took a handful of the brand he used and dropped them one by one on the counter, listening for the ones with the best "tone"........

Finally I just had to ask; "Do you ever have fun when you play?"

Steinar

------------------
www.gregertsen.com

Ted Solesky · Post by **Ted Solesky** » 18 Nov 2005 9:40 am

Can anyone imagine doing a show and having a 'bad' tone? It takes the spirit out of you. But, I heard this directly from Jimmy Day, something we've heard before, it's in the hands. I've heard Buddy Emmons play different brand guitars and he always sounded great. Buying equipment that a pro has, doesn't make you sound like them. Jimmy Day told me,(I talked to him when he was with Willy) that he picked his guitar, and without touching the amp controls, Buddy jumped behind it and had a different sound. Having you're own tone, sound is great! It's you and that's what you want.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 18 Nov 2005 7:11 pm

How can a truly committed musician, steel player, ever play without 100% concern for his/her TONE? Without it, you have nothing!

I once knew a fellow who had a great deal of practical experience, training and savy who had a fine guitar but chose to set his amp at HIGH presence; More treble than necessary, etc., etc. Not satisfied with his sound, he acquired a second amp and played them in stereo. RIGHT!
He sounded twice as "annoying" in stereo with this crispy thin, trebly sound.

All his fast right hand work was for not. It still sounded tinny!

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 18 Nov 2005 10:24 pm

Just curious,do you set your tone for the player or the listener, or maybe somewhere in between. It's been my experience that many times the player and the listener are hearing two different things. In some rooms it appears that the highs and high mids seem to dissipate somewhat as the sound moves toward the back of the room. I know that sometimes when I ask someone(out front) I trust to give me an honest answer about the tone, it's not the way I'm hearing it on stage.
I've also sat in on other people's guitar and their tone was simply ear peircing on stage. But, when I sit out front and listen when they play, it sounds fine. I know right hand technique may account for some of the difference.
As a general rule, I usually run just a tad more highs than what sounds perfect to me. I guess I'm trying to split the difference between what I'm hearing and what I think the crowd is hearing. Of course I'm speaking of a situation in which amps are not going through the sound system, which might be rare these days.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill

James Lombard · Post by **James Lombard** » 18 Nov 2005 10:56 pm

I think we all have in our heads a particular sound we strive to get, and choose our equipment accordingly, leaning towards whichever set-up we believe will deliver it. However, I agree with those who feel tone really lies in the way you touch your Guitar. With some small differences, I sound pretty much the same, whether at my P/P, A Sho-Bud, or any other brand I may sit behind. As with Guitars, the amp contributes in some degree, But as Chet Atkins said when asked how he got that great round tone, replied; "I hold a whole note for for four beats."

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Nov 2005 11:39 pm

How about this: I set up my rig and play it all night, perfectly happy with my tone, flip the switch, walk away and call it a night, come back the next day and flip the switch back on, sit down and begin to play, and can't believe I "tolerated" last night's tone.
I guess I'm not a tone freak at all. I'm a tone weirdo!!!

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 19 Nov 2005 2:08 am

Ken W,
This topic really got me thinking, and I realised that years ago I backed off on the tops. I always preferred a full and bright sound, but then a good friend mine said that the steel got lost in the mix! (From the audience side). I then backed off on the bottoms and top, and apparently the steel now cut through the mix, even when I'm playing pads in the background. Theis tone thing can really take over if you don't watch it. By worrying a bit less about the tone, I leave the setting where I know the steel sounds best on the dance floor, and just carry on playing and enjoying it.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0"><img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20 ... ront85.jpg" border="0"></a>Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
CD "Steel Smokin'"
Veruschka's CD "Don't Dream it's Over"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 19 Nov 2005 5:06 am

One huge tone problem both on electric guitar and steel is that when you get what sounds like an optimal tone at home or in rehearsal, it's gone at the gig...and optimal tone (yeah, right) at one gig is different at the next gig, due to the room size and materials, size of crowd, etc.

No wonder we are all insane.

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Bob Hempker · Post by **Bob Hempker** » 19 Nov 2005 6:36 am

I don't know about all of them, but this one is.

------------------

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 19 Nov 2005 7:34 am

Sure, I like a good tone,but it doesn't cause me to go out and buy lots of equipment. I have always managed to get a satisfactory tone with any equipment on hand.
I will admit that I have become addicted to having a delay unit in line for a full sound.
I think a good point to remember is: Play for the audience, not yourself. Take control of your mind, don't let the tone control you.

------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar

Alex Piazza · Post by **Alex Piazza** » 19 Nov 2005 7:59 am

I heard an old blues guy say that "if you can play, tone doesnt matter, If you cant play then it really doesnt matter".

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 19 Nov 2005 8:03 am

Tone is in the hands to a very great extent. Tone is in the equipment to some extent. Tone quickly dissapears when you are playing with an electric guitar player beating rhythm at about the same volume you are playing and cancelling out most of your frequencies leaving your tone as just a shell. How in the world do you deal with this when that guitar playing is a very good friend and really thinks he is adding so much to the music? I think that what is going on around you on stage has a HUGE bearing on your tone. You can have great hands and great equipment and have it destroyed if a bunch of clutter is going on. Any thoughts on this? I would love to hear some input from some of you pros on this.
Jerry

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 19 Nov 2005 8:58 am

Over the years, I've heard several great and well known players get a very thin, almost shrill tone at various shows & especially on the Opry! Anyone Agree? kr

CB Blackwell · Post by **CB Blackwell** » 19 Nov 2005 3:56 pm

I have to disagree completely with John Daugherty. Never, never do I set my tone to satisfy any one but myself. In my long time experience most of the people that you are playing to don't have a clue what a steel guitar is much less what one is supose to sound like. I set my guitar up to completly to satisfy me, what I want to hear, the way I want to hear it. If some uninformed, none musician, drunk or anybody else doesn't care for my sound, then let him buy his own guitar and see if he can do any better.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 19 Nov 2005 4:29 pm

Eric Johnson makes us steel players look indifferent about tone.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 19 Nov 2005 7:05 pm

I was gonna chime in (pun intended

) about Eric when I read brother Tyack's response. Quite true, quite true.

I was very fortunate to know Stevie Ray and am fortunate to have known Eric J. ever since he was a late teenager, since they both hung around the Austin music since the 1970's. Eric is a native Austinite, actually.

Stevie, to my admittedly foggy music store recollection, never obsessed about "tone," per se... he just played, though I never really hung out with him that much. His brother Jimmie Vaughan, in addition to arguably being a greater blues guitarist that SRV (IMHO), is a lap steel freak, so we related more.

Eric, on the other hand, would come into Danny's Guitars (where I worked in the 80's), grab a Strat off the wall, and whatever cords, picks, amps, effects,... whatever..., he was shopping around for. Then he'd go into an empty lesson room and play for hours upon hours!! He'd obsess upon the smallest difference in timbre that my ears couldn't possibly discern. Finally, we'd close the store for the evening and Eric would go home, to the studio, or to a gig.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 19 Nov 2005 10:30 pm

Well here's my thoughts on the subject. A good player can get the same tone on any rig that he/she might be setting/standing in front of. After a certain amount of learning and playing a picker realizes what particular things makes up his/her tonal qualities.

Whether it is in the hands, picks, amps settings on the amps, or anything else you can think of or a mixture of all of these any player that worries and cares about his tone (not all do)can dial a very close resemblence to his normal favorite tone after a set of playing.

There are so many varibles that make up a tone that he loves that it could take up to a whole set. So if you see your favorite player playing on his rig or even someone elses rig and you think man how does he do it.

Well it's just combination of all these things but its not a casual thing that can happen by wishing it. You must spend years trying to understand what different frequencies sound like and what qualities they add to your instrument. Then you have to know exactly what positions relative to the bridge/neck make your favorite tones along with about 1200 other varibles.

Then you have to understand things like the how the humidity in the air effects your tone and also the density of the crowd and even the other instruments blaring on stage sucking up your bandwidth like was mentioned earlier.

I could go on and on with things that you have to know and understand to get your favorite tone but after a while you would get bored and you would think that I was crazy with all of my ideas of what it takes to get great tones.

So basicly any good player that cares about his tone can set down at anyones rig (almost there are always exceptions) and get that same great tone that they like to have.

But all of this can take many years of hard work and paying attention to your instrument and reading plenty of books on the fundamentals of the audio spectrum and how they interact with everyday life.

But the greatest trick of all is how easy they make it look and all the while you thought they were just up there having fun

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 20 Nov 2005 1:09 am

In the last week, I played three gigs with my blues group (I played guitar--not steel). The first job was recorded by the sound man and I got to hear what my tone sounded like after the fact. It dawned on me that my Tele was too bright, yet, being a creature of habit, I set all my gear the same for the next gig and just started to really pick my sound apart. In the process I realized this: my own fixed ideas about my gear and my sound were blinding me to the truth, and they have been for a long time. (I'm 54 and I've played since I was 12, to add some perspective.)

Last night I listened to the new Lee Ann Womack CD, and the first thing I noticed was how the steel and the electric guitar were beautiful, yet had no real biting treble at all. But boy did they sit nice in the mix.

So, tonight at the last gig of the week, I decided to forsake my "fixed" tone recipe. I brought a cheap Epi LP Junior to the gig, turned off my bright switch on the amp, and dialed in a full and fat tone. I felt my musical ideas flow and I had a sound that was so much truer to what I had been going for all along.

The moral of this is to not be afraid to change and try something different. Applied to steel or any other electric instrument, figure that we have our hands, the instrument, the amplifier and the effects to create our tone. If any one of those pieces are wrong, than the whole equation is off. Forget all the computations we carry and just LISTEN to yourself. Your ears will tell you the truth.

Tomorrow I may have a whole different take, but this is just another confession of a tone freak!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Nov 2005 6:00 am

Another thing worth mentioning, and related to Ray's comment, is that decades ago, the pedal steel's preferred sound had a very dominant treble emphasis. Players wanted that thin, high-pitched, sound because it was in vogue. Listen to Lloyd's stuff behind Warner Mack...no smooth round tones there! Same with Buddy, "Another Bridge To Burn" screams with highs. And the same goes for others like Tom Brumley and Ralph Mooney. Players back then didn't care about "fat sounds"...except Chalker. One of the reasons that he wasn't real popular back then was that his "fat-round" tones weren't popular. He just didn't sound like everyone else!

Fast-forward a few decades, though, and everything changes. Those spikey, sharp, biting, treble tones are just plain out of fashion. Now, everyone wants something closer to what Curly had, fat, full tones that are easier on the ears. No, players don't want the bass quite as heavy as Curly did, and they still want enough treble and mids to be heard in the mix, but by and large, those snappy-sharp sounds of the '60s, those high-treble sounds that just slapped you in the face, are gone...except where a Tele player is concerned.

Most all of those guys still want to rip your head off with highs.

(And they don't like competition.)

Go figure.