Playing with "less experienced "musicians.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Jul 2005 8:01 am

First off let me make this observation.. I feel that often[NOT always] pedal steel guitarists are the BEST musicians in any given musical ensemble. Usually they are multi instrumentalists, often are good vocalists,and seem to posses better theory knowledge and arrangement skills than thier bandstand peers. Just MHO!!

..

Now, we ALL take gigs that we dont like to take.. "I'm just here for the money" type gigs.. Many of us at times will play with what I'll just call "less experienced" bands and musicians.

I am NOT being negative, I am just going to tell it like it is from MY perspective.

I LOVE playing with musicians/bands that make me sweat.. Wondering, 'wow can I CUT it with these guys'?..
I love the challenge of BARELY being able to "keep up"...

I personally KNOW people.. friends of mine.. GOOD players ,that are the opposite.. They prefer musicianship a "step down" from thier own.

One actually told me HE enjoyed being the focal point.
Another was ALWAYS with bands below his caliber of playing ability. The gigs were there I guess, and he did not want the "challenge" of better players...

I just find I have less to give, and less interest in giving it with "less experienced" bands/musicians..
I am somewhat ashamed of this, I am NOT defending it, and it IS something I need to address I think... I wonder if I am the only one who feels like this?... Can you give it all you got, all the time, even if the music is not good?.. I'd love some feedback about this... bob

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 19 Jul 2005 8:11 am

Can you give it all you got, all the time, even if the music is not good?

Your only as good as the best player on stage.
Many times I feel I'm able to play with ease and lots of cool ideas and really good music, right in the pocket> when the members of the band are good well-rounded experienced musicians. But there are other times when I feel like I'm sitting on my Thumbs and have no ideas to better the music and/or play with any expertise; and that is usually with less-than musicians.
So I really only feel as good as the strongest player of a band I may take a gig with. Fortunatly; that does NOT happen very often here in Austin.
Ricky

Bob Tuttle · Post by **Bob Tuttle** » 19 Jul 2005 8:15 am

I always try to perform to the best of my ability, regardless of the other musician's level of skill. However, it is very difficult to get inspired or get any kind of groove going if the other band members are "hacks". Sometimes I have to retreat into my own little world, and play for my own satisfaction.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 19 Jul 2005 9:48 am

I perfer to play with musicians a cut above me. That's when I'm most comfortable, and can do my best.

With less experienced players I have to work harder to make things blend.

I usually find myself being the most experienced musician in the band, and wish the situation was the opposite.

It's difficult to motivate yourself to do better when others are telling you, "wow, you played great!", even if you know that is far from the truth.

I say it's difficult, but it can be done. I know because I'm doing it.

Jimmy Gibson · Post by **Jimmy Gibson** » 19 Jul 2005 9:51 am

Please don`t take this the rong way,but Come on Bob,there was a time when you were not so good you are now,and we all had to start somwhere at some time To gain experience.I know it can be hard work playing with people who are less expeienced, but if your doing it for the money it don`t matter so much,but IMHO you take pot luck when you play with bands you have never played with,BUT think about it, they may not be much good but their working and thats what it all about.

JG.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 19 Jul 2005 10:09 am

I could not agree more with the statements made by Bob, Ricky, and Joey. I've been in both situations, and both have their ups and downs.

Fortunately I'm in a situation right now where I'm the "hack" and man it's a lot of fun.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 19 Jul 2005 10:24 am

I am always faced with situations where I play with non pro musicians. Last week I worked a dinner theater show at a church playing acoustic and elec guitar. The two kids playing percussion were just high schoolers, the bass player was a guitar player that went and bought a bass to do this show it seemed, the drummer had not played a set of drums in 12 years he told me, the girl playing synth could read every note on the page with absolutely no clue as to a feel or a groove and the lady leading the pack was the organist at the church.

They offered me $1200 for the week to come play with them simply because the acoustic guitar really carried the groove on most of the show and they had no one in their circle of players who could read the book.

So in order to make the money and pay my bills and fix the timing chain in my car and a hundred other things that keep the family going I went and did it. I purposefully did not walk in there and take over and tell them what to do and what not to do. I was nice and friendly and told them I appreciated them "inviting" me to be a part of the show. I let the musical director run the rehearsal and the performances. After the first performance, the audience aplauded like they were at a Broadway show in NY. The rest of the week was fine. The show finished, I was handed a check and invited back for the next show.

There was probably a time when I was young and stupid and egocentric and such that I could not have sat there and listened to what those kids were trying to do without saying something acerbic or copping an attitude in order to vent for such a musician as I to have to stoop so low as to play with such "unwashed instrument holders".

I just think back on all the times where some fine musician put up with ME and all the edges are immediately knocked off.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Jul 2005 10:27 am

Bill.. For THAT kind of bread, I think a lot of us "jaded" types would be able to find the groove!!

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 19 Jul 2005 10:30 am

Fortunately I'm in a situation right now where I'm the "hack" and man it's a lot of fun

That's exactly what I feel like when I'm sitting in with some of our top Portland players - fortunately, they don't feel that way about me, so it's the best of both worlds.

I'm often the most experienced in the music BUSINESS and since the early '70's it seems that I've picked up a lot of slack for many of the artists that I have played with, whether it's my understanding of sound systems, staging, publicity, marketing, etc., or just how to write, learn and play music together. The flip side of this is that I'm often surrounded by incredible players that give me an opportunity to turn it up a notch as a player myself and get outside the PSG box altogether.

No matter how hard I try, it's pretty hard to play Bud's Bounce well with a band that doesn't understand how it's done, but on the other hand, I can play Shenandoah or Amazing Grace with just about ANYONE and it will sound like beautiful music to all concerned.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 19 July 2005 at 11:33 AM.]

Kenny Drake · Post by **Kenny Drake** » 19 Jul 2005 10:53 am

Good topic. My approach has always been to try and learn from every situation, if possible. I've been fortunate to have played with some very accomplished musicians and that experience helped me stretch my playing abilities. And the opposite is also true. When I find I'm the most experienced/accomplished player on stage, I remind myself that everyone is at a different level and I try be as gracious as others have been to me. But, I can enjoy either situation with an equal amount of discomfort and frustration when the .011 goes "pop". Ha!

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 19 Jul 2005 11:10 am

I've always considered myself a lenient guy,when, playing with musicians of less experience. I've never derided or had a holier than thou attitude, because, I was certainly in their place not long ago.And, have experienced both sides of the ego trip from "My Brothers in Music". Derision and unconstructive criticism can ruin anyone's enthusiasm.
I have quit jobs that were not my cup of tea, so to say. You know the job, where most of all musical conotation is out of your hands... This guy plays too loud, the other guitar player trying to play a "BAD" slide guitar over your ride. You want to turn the volume up, but, that's not the real solution. I can't stand getting rapped up in those situations. It just makes me feel incomplete, because, there's no cohesion in the group. That's the time, when I politely say- "I'm atta here". No disrespect to anyone in the band, I just have to go and do something else to make me happy.
This situation, I've found, (SAYING TO MYSELF) is usually with musicians of lesser quality, who, have the ego and all the answers to the world's problems, in their convoluted brains.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 19 Jul 2005 11:12 am

"Pedal steeler are often the best musicians"... In a way I'd have to agree with that as far as theory goes anyway! I was a working lead guitarist before I ever got serious about pedal steel and I think that taking up the steel really helped me as a musician and especially in my knowledge of music theory! I don't think I really ever knew what I was doing before I took up steel. I knew a lot of licks, chords, etc. but couldn't explain what I was doing. From studying steel guitar which is tuned to a chord and after learning what part of the chord each string was, I could actually look at a chord and from the pedal or lever movement and actually tell what it was doing to that chord such as flatting the 3rd or 5th, raising the root, suspending the 4th, etc. So all in all I think steelers do have more knowledge than other musicians in the band....JH in Va.

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It's all on 12, who needs 20!

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 19 Jul 2005 11:20 am

I love the challenge of BARELY being able to "keep up"...

After 40 years you get used to it...

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 19 Jul 2005 12:03 pm

What a deal, Bill. But it shows you can still be a pro in that situation, with an attitude of camaraderie. The rewards aren't always that good....

I've worked with more than my share of amateurs. Sure, it's better when the band carries you along with it, more fun, better music. But for some reason--well, this one band in Tulsa (The Honky Dreads!) I was the musician of the outfit. It has its own charm. I still work with amateurs doing recording; it gives me a chance to take something fresh and give it a good sound.

Both aspects are good. With other pros, tho, you get to be up on the big stage.
Nothing better.

I wonder why so many steel players are multi-instrumental? The way they hear the music, the parts? Typically, cellists make the best conductors.... something about where they sit in the orchestra.

Michael Breid · Post by **Michael Breid** » 19 Jul 2005 12:40 pm

Bob, Buddy Spicher once said, "You are only as good as your worst musician". That just about says it. I have worked with super musicians, and I have worked with mediocre ones. I prefer the super ones who make me sweat, but I love to play too much to cull the mediocre ones. There is something to be learned from every musician. Even if it's "I hope I never have to play with this group again". Life is too short not to accept challanges. As a novice steel player(three years) just about anyone I play with is better than me, but I still love the challange. There is no time to be bored in my life. I know that with patience, practice, and perseverence I will be better. If one is satisfied with they way they play and refuses to learn anything new or challanging, then that is their problem. That is just not my personal philosophy. Everyday there is something new out there to learn whether it be in music or in life. A voice inside me says, "Go for it", and that's what I do.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Jul 2005 12:55 pm

Here's what happened to me, once...

We lost out regular lead player, and hired what I thought was just a "groupie" who had told us he played guitar and really loved our sound. When he first started, he was clueless. I wound up overplaying (which I was used to, since I played so much as the only lead instrument), and I was doing about 90% of the lead work. The first few months were frustrating for him, as he couldn't contribute much to our sound. One night, he said rather matter-of-factly..."You sure play a lot!" I asked him exactly what he meant, and he said..."You don't leave any holes for me to fill! When are you going to let me play some?" I told him, in good natured fashion..."We have a certain sound I'm trying to maintain, so when what you're doing fits as well as what I'm doing, I'll gladly back off and let you play."

Fast forward almost a year, and he was playing his socks off. He got so good at what we were doing, I became the one who couldn't find any holes! We still play together sometimes, and when we do, it's a very good-natured fight for who does what. (He does some really fine lead lead work.)

Yes, we both probably still "overplay", but we sure have a good time doing it!

Also, I get a little credit now and then for creating the "monster".

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 19 Jul 2005 2:28 pm

Hey Bob,
I'm with ya on this one for sure. I have allways tried to play with folks where I have to work hard to fit in. I get a much bigger sense of satisfaction from it.But around here there is not a lot to choose from.Out in the sticks I guess. We have a couple of local "Country Music ASSOC." who meet once a month on a sunday.Mostly made up of folks who have never played in a group or have not in many years.But unfortunatly, they could not play/sing then and cant now either..Drummers who cant count to four...,singers who sing in one key while everyone else is in another key...
I think you know what I meen

.But there heart is in the right place and they sure love music.Practically beg for players but its no fun at all, so I stay away although I am a member so I can at least help support them with my membership money.
Thanks Bob, now I feel bad!!

good thread though.

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SHO~BUDS, Steelkings,
Fender guitars,
Hilton pedals, Preston
covers, and Taylor(Tut, that is)Resos.
"still alive and well"

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 19 Jul 2005 3:19 pm

I have many times sit down and played music with people who played at a lower level than I do. I have walked away frusturated, and yes, even mad at times. One thing that bothers me is for someone not to come in on kickoffs or cannot find the right beat for a song. Another thing that bothers me is someone to play flat or out of tune. There is one thing I can say, I have never told someone who is less fortunate than I that they are not a good musician or they played lousy. If I play at a higher level than another steel player and I can help him, it gives me satisfaction helping another steel player. I prefer to play with others who are at a higher level simply because it makes me think and brings my playing to a higher level.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Jul 2005 5:07 pm

Larry.. NY state is a tough nut.. ESPECIALLY in the rural areas.

There are some good players,but they are very spread out, and are pretty rare here in the sticks.

Probably easier to find in Buffalo,Rochester Syracuse..

Our friends in Texas,California, the cities of the Pacific Northwest, and perhaps other more metropolitan areas may not realize how hard it is to get with a bunch of truly superior players, when you usually have to just take what you can get.

Over many years I have found geography plays a HUGE role in the ability level of musicians.. I guess the guys that are really skilled,tend to be where the gigs are. That has been my experience.

By the way,, I can see by the intelligent and well thought out responses of our friends that NO steel player "looks down" on guys that may not be great players.

As a group, I know we have more class than that... We may not be thrilled with the music, but we "suck it up" and give it all we have to give. I guess the general consensus is, we do seem to have more to give when the players are at a superior skill level.. bob

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 19 Jul 2005 5:46 pm

Well said Bob. There are some very good players in this neck of the woods.Though they are out numbered

.And some decent gigs as well. Its just that they are few and
far between.I have a couple of semi-steady
gigs and aside from those I turn down a lot of work for just the reasons we been discussing.Too frustrating a lot of the time and I am fortunate enough not to need the money that bad at this point of my life..Then again there have been times in the past when it was just about the money.
I guess we have ALL been there.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 19 Jul 2005 7:11 pm

It must be HORRIBLY frustrating, to always be the best musician in the band---Unless you're Duke Ellington, Frank Zappa, Doyle Lawson, Bob Wills, or countless other bandleaders (no musical slouches themselves, either!) whose bands were, and are, training grounds for some of the best players out there. As far as the local scene goes, if I'm the best musician available, then there IS no local scene. I enjoy having my lunch taken away from me. I do not need the money, nor does my ego need the boost, of playing with musicians who can't play changes. What would be the point? Do I want to frustrate myself musically? Am I trying to be a teacher? Or am I patting myself on the back, telling myself how I was the only player in the pocket?
No, I prefer being a weak link. I'm pushed to play at my best, to think about what I'm playing, and I FORCE myself to be able to explain every note that I play. THAT'S a successful gig, to me.
All others need not apply.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 19 Jul 2005 8:14 pm

Stephen,
You free Friday night ?

-John
p.s. Don't even bring up Gas Money. -J

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 19 Jul 2005 8:34 pm

If you like the feeling of being challenged by better players, then I guess you know how less experienced players feel when they're performing with you.[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 19 July 2005 at 09:37 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 20 Jul 2005 12:46 am

I think it depends on the situation. Like Bob, I prefer to work with people who are better than me. My 2001-2002 blues rock band was a great example. The lead guitarist was really hot, and he inspired my to strive to greater hights.

I've worked with people who were not highly skilled, but who nevertheless, were good enough to get the job done. In that situation, I do the best I can, and if they let me, give them pointers and try to help them improve.

But there are people out there who have no more business attempting to make music, than any of us do attempting to do brain surgury.

On 2 different occasions I refused to play with groups because they were so bad. I felt like a real jerk for doing so, but when people are as incompetant as these guys (and gal) were, I feel there's no other option other than to just walk away.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 20 Jul 2005 4:10 am

"Good enough to get the job done".. hmmm.. I like the phrase Mike..

Thats where I rate my skill level... I guess I would be fairly happy if all my musical endevours were with folks in this category.

I like to think when I play with a group of folks just a notch above this level, that I can rise to that level at least for a short time.

However, I feel that if I am with players a step or two BELOW, I can't rise above it, and usually play at this lesser level...

I am not sure if any of this makes sense, but I relate to what the guys who talked about the "weakest link" were saying. For whatever reason, the weaker the ensemble, the weaker I am...

I feel inept with a poor band.. I play BADLY....Amatuerish..

However,I feel like a world class player when I am fortunate enough to play with an exceptional group of musicians.
Most everything I do comes out the way I want it,and I just have more to say musically... I do not have to think of parts to play, They just seem to be there... It feels like the steel [or guitar for that matter] is playing itself,,, NO effort required... Does this make sense??..
Its more work when the music is bad, and its effortless when its good... At least thats how it seems.... bob