Moving "beyond" early steel influences..

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Have you?? We all learned from somebody.. teachers, records, books, training courses etc. I wonder if you guys have moved on to more advanced styles,more intricate playing techniques ,than the ones you tried so hard to imitate in your first few years of playing..

In my own case,no, I have not... I kind of like what I do, but I am somewhat "pigeon holed" into a certain 70's country rock style.. I like it, other players like it the fans like it, but it limits me somewhat and at 51 its hard to break the "machinery" that has been "forged".. I would like some comments on this from other long time players... bob

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Like Bob, I had my own style that was based on a non-standard copedent. Looking back, I think that the copedent really limited my development and by ability to move "beyond" my own bad habits.

Through the Forum I gained several insights that led me to break those old habits. I really wish I had been presented with the logic behind the standard E9th early on, especially on the top two strings. Not understanding how they work in conjunction with the other strings and pedal positions led me down a very restrictive musical path.

It's a lot of work to change habits and reflexes that you've acquired over many years of playing pedal steel. I don't recommend that anyone do what I did. It was really hard.

But this is why I always recommend the standard E9th copedent to all new pedal steel players. It's not just because of the instructional material. It's because there is a wonderful logic at the heart of the tuning. No matter how good you are at music theory, you won't be able to come up with a better "variation" of the basic string tuning and the fundamental 3 pedals and 3 knee levers. You can add to them, but you should never play without them.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Jody Cameron · From: Angleton, TX,, USA

Bob, I know what you mean. I too have particular style that was solidified early on. But I've found that if I want to try and branch out into another genre, like jazz, I listen to nothing but that for a while, and try to emulate what I hear horn players doing (not so much steel players). I can't really play like a true jazz player, but I enjoy fooling around with it.

Also, I find myself getting on "kicks" and getting into one player or style for long periods, exclusive to everything else; then on to something or someone else.

JC

Marty Pollard · Posted 10 Jun 2005 11:53 am

Yeah I have.
In reality, after my first infatuation w/Lloyd's playing, and w/a bakground in b@anj0 and rhythm gtr, I had no real pedal steel direction. I was already playing commercially and had to learn RIGHT NOW!

Of course I had the stuff in my head that I heard on the radio but I try more for the sound/atmosphere of a style than any particular licks.

And I had the ideal early on (like I read in one of Lloyd's interviews) to just stick w/the top neck till I got 'er mastered.

Well, it's all I need so...

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

I read most of these posts and find them slightly interesting. Mr Carlucci, I think you would be alot better off practicing or gigging rather than inquiring about all these wordy investigations about some worn out concept. I apoligize if I am offending you, but you spend an awful lot of time and effort asking these questions about stuff. I spend my time practicing and playing more than talking and analysing..........

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 10 June 2005 at 01:32 PM.]

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

He's baaaaaaack!

I heard other great steelers; Lloyd, BE, Jerry Byrd, Chalker and others and they influenced me to want to play steel but I never sat down and tried to copy them. Pity, if I had I'm sure I'd be a better player.

At the beginning I just played what I could, the simple common licks. Later, when I had been hired to play steel seriously instead of just as a 2 or 3 songs a set addition to my regular guitar playing, I needed to learn more fast. I heard Jim Bob Garrett when they came as the night band in the club we were playing and I attempted to rip-off anything of his that I could, and that was the beginning of me actually becoming a steeler, I think.

After that, I just incorporated what I learned from him into my own stuff again. I thought orchestration and keyboard styles mor than anything when I played. I didn't care about or want to sound like everyone else. I'm stubborn that way.

So to answer your question, Bob...

What was the question again?

I guess I don't have a good answer! I never did try to copy my early influences, except for Jim Bob, when I seriously needed a quick jump-start on the instrument.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 10 June 2005 at 01:41 PM.]

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Bob C., like you, I cut my teeth on the country rock stuff. I still love that music and my present infatuation with Americana music has gotten me back to those roots, but with the insights and wisdom I've acquired as a musician for the past 25 or so years since I quit playing country rock. Now, I can apply all the things I've learned over the years to that style of music and it's a blast. No, I'll never be a great steeler and yeah, that style of music does have its limitations that are not present with jazz and swing, which has been my primary pursuit over the years. But, I flat-out love the music. For me, it's no longer about gettin' good, it's about enjoying playing, enjoying the fellowship of other musicians and finally gleaning out of music what has eluded me over the years, and that is relaxation, fun and enjoyment.

Funny thing is that now that I no longer am trying to pursue it for money, I am making more money playing than I ever did before. I'm busy all the the time with my duo and 2 bands, as well as my church's worship band and in doing outreaches with them. Besides playing and preaching, I average about 25 improvisation students a week on a variety of instruments. Truly, I am becoming a better musician from teaching than from any personal practice or professional playing that I do.

But, to answer your question striaght up, Rusty Young, Sneaky Pete, Buddy Cage, Al Perkins, Bobby Black and Ralph Mooney's styles are still prevalent in my playing, and no, I haven't gone beyond them in my ability; in fact, I am still learning from them.

Still, I can seldom walk past my steel without sitting down and running through a few passages on it. I'm hopelessly addicted to it like no other instrument that I play.

[This message was edited by Webb Kline on 10 June 2005 at 01:47 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Bob, get a Buddy Emmons record. Get a Lloyd Green record. Get a Russ Hicks record.
GET A FREAKIN' LIFE

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Hey Bob. You do have a life so pay no attention to anyone who insinuates that you don't. Know that there are plenty of folks here on the Steel Forum you can count on when you need them.

In regards to you post about moving on past your early influences, that can be pretty monumental when your early influences and heros are the greatest players on the instrument, no matter what instrument your talking. I think the deciding moment comes when you start moving in your own direction no matter how meager and break away from being totally dominated by the influence of your fav hero.

George Redmon · From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.

Early habits are indeed hard to break! but don't confuse bad technique with early influence. I am sure Bob, Lloyd did it right, that is why you may have liked him so well. Can you show me in Roberts Rules of Order, that says it's such a crime to play like an influence? pick up a copy of an Early Tommy White LP titled Tommy White Aged 15 Years...he sound more like chalker, then chalker..lol i think you might agree that Tommy White is a great steel player ..aahhh right Bob? still with me sir? I think i would much rather have a little lets say Emmons in me Bob..then ..no one..i am not sure a person could learn this instrument, without hearing someone else play it do you? and i can only imagine what it would sound like if we could...if i hear alittle moon in you..it would simply make me smile..not hate you for playing a little like your influence..my goodness...if that were the case my friend..i can tell you right now..you never want to hear me play...now i forgot Bob..how many Elvis impersonators did you say there were in Las Vegas this week?

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

George Redmon · From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.

Hey Bob...remember that long ending Buddy E did on the C6th...way back in 1990 at the ISGC? i can finally do it..i can do it bob..i can finally do it bob...hey bob i nailed it ..bob...

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bob-I was very impressed and heavily influenced by Maurice Anderson back in 1968. I still am.

Where do you move on to from there????....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I notice Bobby Lees' post and I must agree that his reccommendation for new steelers to stick with standard E9 tuning is right on, and there are many good reasons for starting out that way.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Bob, the concept of moving past ones early influences may be an old one, but it is definitely not worn out. This forum is to discuss ideas that are important, and this one is obviously important to a lot of people. Don't let these negative posts discourage you. This forum is here for all members, including many of us who have not seen it all before.

I haven't been playing pedal steel a long time, but I play Tele and have listened to and played a lot of country and country-rock. So I have a lot of early influences that inevitably showed up immediately when I started playing, but especially Sneaky Pete, Lloyd Green, Jay Dee Manness, Pete Drake and Ralph Mooney. It can truly be hard to escape the shadows of such great players, but to me, finding ones own voice is essential on any instrument.

Luckily, I had absolutely no idea how they played, what their copedents were, etc. So when I started, I just got a beginner's video and had at it. For good or bad, I think I'm starting to sound like myself. I have learned more in the last 10 months on this forum than in the previous 5 years I played, thanks to many, many posts like this that got me to think about how to play this thing. I hear things by players, some famous and some not, and try to let it all wash over me. I hope some of the good things will stick, and that I can add something of my own.

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

Bob,
I'm pretty much locked into the same venue. Started playing because of Lloyd's and JD's tracks on Sweetheart of the Rodeo, but, became swayed over with the country rock sound. Had a band that opened up for the Byrd's, then opened for the Burrito's, that's where my true roots lie. I think my style still has a lot of that sound. Having been mostly self taught, I play with a flat right hand and not the typical Nashville cupped ball grip. I don't have that palm blocking, chicken picking thing going for me. I tend to use a lot of finger rolls. But, I have developed a more Nashvile sound over the years, because of the many steel players I have heard and met. I'll have to honestly say that, Jeff Newman was the first Nashville influence for me. I try to emulate Buddy, LLoyd, John, Hal, Doug and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The nice thing about it though,is that, you never get tired of the many combinations you can put together. The steel guitar, as we all know, is a very diversified and personal instrument. There are no boundaries to what might be learned on it. Sufficed to say that, if your happy with the style you have, stick with it and be yourself. But, it is possible to learn other techniques if you want to.

Billy Joe Bailey · From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA

I know at different times go back to my basic Jeff Newman Steelguitar courses,but hey I believe their the best money can buy.
IF someone desires to learn
Why Bob one of the most important things we have now days
We can go get us a teach -STEELGUITAR VIDEO-
and the greatest is it's got a stop and replay'''''stop and replay'''' stop''''and replay'''''Hey Bob you get the idear I had to do alot of that stoping and starting in my life.
I'm still playing the old one's I don't put to much health in the new one's.
You go get um Bob we're pulling for you.

[This message was edited by Billy Joe Bailey on 10 June 2005 at 10:12 PM.]

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 11 June 2005 at 01:38 AM.]

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Nice post, Dave.

Some of this reminds me of something Ed Packard said, think I'll borrow it as a sig at least right here and now.

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I find it fascinating how many folk know what others should do, and how they should do it. Most of us tend to form behavior/belief preferences based on the type of potty training to which we were exposed; if we have been conditioned by a very structured up bringing/life then we would prefer that all others satisfy those tautological preferences.

If there is one thing that I can’t tolerate, it is intolerance! …

--Ed Packard

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 11 June 2005 at 01:40 AM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Alright, besides what my fellow Portlander Dave said so well.

I was lucky enough to trouble Mr Charleton for a couple years in 77-9, after playing guitar and other stringed instruments most of my life.

The basics, tuning, self discipline as to what I would accept from myself and what I would not were always set in stone for the rest of my playing time.

Early on, poverty lead me to play in cover bands. I didn't even know whose stuff I was "copping", as it was all a blur. I didn't know that it was Lloyd on "Elvira" or "Baby's got her Blue Jeans on", or Mr Emmons on Someday Soon, or who was on "Blue Bayou" or "Seven Year Ache" or "You can't take the Texas out of me", or Sixteenth Avenue, Lonely Women" et al ad inf, ad naus... I just knew I had to play it convincingly, and I worked ALL the time.

I always applied my early formulae for learning the correct notes, and blocking 'in tune' strings correctly, crossing over rather than sloppily playing "rolls" on single note runs.

At the same time, the cover bands played things like "I Feel Fine", and I had to do that overdriven harmonic "intro", then make up runs and solos for Billy Joel's "Still Rock and Roll to me", or the tag lick for "You May be Right", and then the organ part for ""Born to be Wild, harmony lines for "Sleepin Single" or "When will I be Loved". Either that, or get canned. I didn't get canned. I worked 5-7 nights for more than a dozen years, even after I started the "day job thing" in 86.

Last week I played with a "R&B" oriented Country Pop Band that I'll be working with on my spare dates, and filled in my summer with. ROTB I was able to play 'Broadway" from memory of playing it in years past, was able to follow the "Mickey Baker" substitutions the band put on "Half a Man" with little or no problem, then do "Play That Funky Music" right on the money, and was right at home with Bobby Caldwell's "What you won't do for Love".

It all goes back to my original time with Mr Charleton, and it has to sound good to me or I can't play it more than once without working out something I can stand. Without the technique and self examination I learned from him, I couldn't have played a hundred gigs. Let alone about three thousand.

To answer, yes I constantly go back and play the "intricasies" when I find time, in an hour or two a day even when I play the weekends that are now the only jobs available, though long ago I gave up putting "Almost to Tulsa" or Hitchin A Ride" out on the bandstand, let alone the "Rhodes Bud Boogie". In addition, playing the second fret crossover scales, up and down on the C6, crossing over starting on the Thumb or Middle alternately until I can do it up to my speed, going over the latest Paul Franklin E9 SPeed picking exes, and whatever else I'm working on.

When I stop gigging, or slow down, I will not be "going home and practicing" as much.

There were a few "money" years, where I only had time to play weekends with a ****ty weekend band, and work 60-90 hours a week, and I didn't practice. Now with the only jobs I can stand being better "cover" or "good player" bands, I can only do it because I don't work the 60-90 hr day gigs, and can keep my playing up for the better bands that I enjoy playing with and that don't work for "door or tip jar" money.

That's my best answer from a steadily gigging perspective.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 11 June 2005 at 02:00 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Gosh, Bob, I feel terrible sitting here reading posts from accomplished players instead of practicing. I mean, guys who have already proven themselves and are willing to share their experiences with you and me.... What could I possibly learn from that?
Glad yer back.
Charlie

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Eric, that's a good point about not knowing who you were trying to emulate back in the beginning. I was the same way. I didn't know who played on what until years later, when someone would suggest that I sounded like one of those players and I would stand there feeling like an idiot for not even knowing who it was they said that I sounded like. Then I decided that I should learn a little bit about my roots. I don't think that was such a bad thing, because by then, I had progessed to where I better understood what they were doing, and it gave me a tremendous growth spurt on the steelto listen to their newer material.

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