Pitch,Temper,Tuning,Flat,Sharp,In,Out..

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I would like to discuss how we perceive what is In,or Out of tune... Why do some steel parts sound "out" but are still very sweet and musical and pleasant to listen to, and others are more "in" but are not "sweet"... I was replying to an email from our friend Bobbe, and I relayed to him that one of my all time favorites Pete Klienow, often had a "pitchiness" to his great style that some might percieve as "out of tune"... Yet it is ALWAYS beautifully toneful, musical,and VERY pleasant to listen to.. REAL easy on the ears.

I am beginning to wonder as Bobbe said in a related post, "what is in tune"..???

I even think of some old Marshall Tucker where Toy was "off".. yet to my ears it was still pleasant to listen to..

I do not have the intricasies of pitch/tuning theory in my head the way some steel players do.. I would like to dicuss why sometimes "in tune" doesn't sound good to me, and why "out of tune" sounds beautiful.. I am not being a smart ass.. I just have trouble understanding this.... bob

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Bob--I think the best we get is "relatively in tune" in this world. Let's look at several instruments.

A real piano has a stretch tuning. The tuner tunes out the beats between all the strings and when he's done, it sounds completely in tune. If you put it on a strobe tuner, though, you find out that the high notes are sharp and the real low notes are flat.

We tune (at least I do) steel to be in tune with itself by tuning out the beats, but its a tempered tuning. Put it on a strobe tuner and its all over the place.

The guitar is tuned to a 440 reference, but not every note on the neck is perfectly at 440. The Buzz Fieten system is supposed to improve this, but is it perfect?

Violin players usually play sharp on purpose because it makes the notes cut through better.

So, if we take all these instruments and toss them all into a recording session, what is really in tune? What we end up with is finding a pleasing compromise. As a steel player, I think one is looking for the tonal center, or average, that is the sum of all these different tunings playing at the same time. Its rather amazing to me that this actually works as well as it does.

Maybe that "out of tune" sound that you like is just the steel player trying to be more in tune with the rest of the band. On the new Mark Chesnutt CD, Paul Franklin's playing sounds perfectly in tune all the time--to my ears. I wonder, though, what we'd discover if we could isolate and analyze each note he's playing. We'd probably find out he's got a real trained pair of ears (not to mention playing ability beyond most mortals).

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Bob. I hear what you're saying. Bobbe Seymore's Masters CD is a great example. I can tell Jimmy Day's playing right off, and it is at once the most "pitchy", and yet is the easiest to listen to. At least for me. What grabs me is the playing with the most heart..

It's real hard to put into words.

I think though, that for players that are just starting out, if you and I can remember back that far, it is first finding a simple, solid way to tune, and going to work on making your left hand express what is in your mind, and moreso your heart, rather than follow what your "ears" think they hear every second.

A person can go nuts demanding that all their playing go endlessly and randomly through the ear/brain/hand readjustment loop, especially playing with a live band.

Excessive vibrato is a symptom of this. I think those that play with the most heart smooth out this loop somewhat without ignoring the auditory.

Yeah, that's it, playing what's in your mind and heart, rather than putting your ears into every note.

Like your eyes, they can be deceptive. Used as tools of the mind and heart, to only help guide the hands instead of 1st responders in a pulsating, constantly erratic hand control loop to me is the best way to explain it.

Often, those players tend to play in the best "tune", as well. It's not either one or the other. Everything in this world isn't that cut and dried.

People that match paint colors, know this. you close one eye, look at a paint hue, and try matching it with your other eye. Can't be done. Background is everything too. Especially at live band levels.

In short, I dunno, but it's an interesting subject to be sure.

I guess we all like what we like, and only get into trouble when we try to tell other people that it is better than what they like...

Like trying to explain Quality*...

EJL

*(In reference to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maint.")

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 April 2005 at 09:28 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Perfect mathimatical / mechanical pitch,
is not the same as playing the right
EMOTIONAL detuning for the song.

Fiddlers, sax players and blues guitarists are the most noted for this.
But it equaly applies to slide instruments.

A bit sharp gives one feeling, a bit flat another..
too MUCH is where people say.. oh it's out of tune.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

If there were really only 12 music notes in an octave, music wouldn't be very interesting to listen to. Take your average MIDI track for example - perfectly "in tune" according to current standards, and as boring as the day is long.

Some pop music adheres to that standard, but almost anything that's listenable includes notes that diverge from the equally spaced marks in the audio spectrum.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Bob, there you go starting trouble again!

I think I do know what you mean though. Not something drastically off-key, but just ever-so-slightly... If a person really listens, he can hear something different between the new recordings coming out of the major studios and the older recordings.... I think that difference is Autotune.

On the older recordings you hear that very slight pitchiness in some notes from the vocalist, maybe the guitarist or steelguitarist. Not anymore. Everything's in perfect pitch as if it were played on a midi keyboard, and as far as I'm concerned it practically was.

In the engineer's and producer's quest for recorded perfection, they've glommed onto Autotune as their magic wand, able to turn Ashley Simpsons into Barbara Streisands with one touch. I would be surprised if they're not running all vocals and even some steel guitars through it these days, and the singers and musicians themselves probably are not even aware of it. Why would the bigwigs tell them everything about the technical aspects of mixing, etc.? They don't. I've read plenty of interviews where the artist stated they were quite surprised at what actually came out on the record.

Autotune may make all the pitches "perfect", but it's so perfect, it's boring, at least when applied to most pop tunes. Midi keyboard.

Of course "boring" doesn't apply to those great musicians who couldn't be boring, in tune or out.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 24 April 2005 at 04:45 PM.]

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

One of the reasons I ask this is because of some old tapes I was listening to. MAN did I sound out!!.. However the singer that PAID for the sessions, the engineer/mixdown guy... all left everything in and liked it.. These are VERY experienced people, and are pros. Now to me, I thought every steel part should have been taken out, washed in bleach and burned. However some good musicians that I trust, heard no problem..

Other times,My perception of "in tune" has someone else sprinting for the back door ,green around the eyes, with his hands clamped over his mouth. I'm starting to wonder if music,hearing,perception is all relative...

I'm starting to get over the edge here.. There are ringlets of wiring smoke coming out of every orifice in my huge misshapen head.... bob

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

When I play with classically-trained players, I sometimes feel a bit out of place. They tend to be so focused on laser-precision, both in execution and pitch, and look askance at microtonal variations, intentional or not. Many musicians look on sliding into a note as a serious technique problem, again intentional or not. Vibrato can certainly be overused, but sometimes it adds to the emotional quality of the music.

On guitar, I still view myself as a blues guitar player, since that's where I started a long, long time ago, and it permeates my approach, even though I play a lot of different styles now. But in blues, you are not supposed to be perfectly 'on-pitch' all the time. Well-placed microtonal variations sound great to me. The cry of a guitar, or especially a steel, when you pull slightly off the reference pitch can be very emotional. It's the human vocal quality that I love. I'm confident that is the reason I took up steel, and that attitude carries over into my steel playing. I love the way some players do it, and don't care for the way other players do it. A lot of it is personal taste, de gustibus non disputandum should apply.

In blues, listen to guys like Earl Hooker or Robert Nighthawk, who I think were the supreme electric blues slide players. I love to hear the way the great sax players work with pitch and phrase things also. The great steel players have this rare quality also, and I don't know how to categorize or quantify it. When it's there, I think people notice it. When I'm happy with my own playing, I think it comes from long practicing, carefully listening, and learning to apply the right feedback control. No bloody meter's gonna tell me this, that's for sure, even though I use a meter to do a basic tune-up. Of course, I'm sure you can tell my attitude on autotune. Perfect way to suck all the soul out of the music.

One other thing: it sure is tough doing much of anything if the people I'm playing with are way out, relative to each other. If they're reasonably close, I can usually adapt, but if they're not, it gets ugly. Unfortunately, this happens sometimes, especially on a loud stage. Maybe there is a use for autotune after all.

But seriously, this is one of the reasons I'm adamant these days about keep stage volume reasonable. Of course, I don't always win that battle.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Great thinking going on here! I love it!
Bob C, you have a great knack for hitting some great topics that we all need to think about, all the time. I think several new players can learn something here, (and some older ones too!)
Bob C.,,,, you get my vote for "great thought provoker".
bobbe

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · From: Ayrshire, Scotland

Keep it down lads, there's a chancer trying to get to sleep.
Cheeeeeeeeers, Arch.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Shoot...Ernest Tubb was always flat and people still love his music.

Ron

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Well, I didn't get it on tape so I could hear it today, but last nights gig was really loud [small place, rowdy crowd].

After tuning, my steel sounded horrible, but my tuner said it was on!

Right or wrong, I opted to tune untill it was pleasing to "my" wore out ears!! And sounded good with the other instruments!!
Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

[This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 24 April 2005 at 05:25 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I can't remember hearing Pete Kleinow play pitchy too much - maybe once on an early FBB record.But he likes to play thru an older chorus device that creates the effect by detuning the signal and then recombining it with the original dry signal. He used it a lot and it made everything he played kinda "swim" altho I could always hear an in-tune tonal center to his playing. One other thing in defense of the Autotune thing is that it's not just an on or off proposition.It can be applied in very subtle ways and I often use it in my studio to save an incredibly soulful vocal track that's just a tad over the pitchy line to use otherwise. And I do it by just pulling the one or two offending notes back towards,but maybe not all the way back to the intended pitch.Otherwise,you're punching in words or phrases which can disrupt the flow of the total performance. Or you can go for a whole other take and of course many times,the first or second take is "the one". So to me as a record producer,it's actually less intrusive to the creative process to use autotune sparingly and save a great take than it is punch the whole thing together.
But back to the jist of the thread,there are pitch subtlties in Asian,African and Indian music that just escape the average westerner's ears and the same goes for time. I've known drummers who didn't know what I was talking about when I said to play on the back of the beat - and fine steel players with great technical skill and deep harmonic ideas that sounded sour(to me).

I guess it's just a personal reference point every musician has - part cultural,part educational and part emotional that tells us what's "in-tune". -MJ-

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Indian musicians fiddle with this intentionally and consciously a lot - for example, they'll play a few licks or a whole sequence slightly flat so that they can build up to a big climactic note, which they'll hit either spot on, or play it as flat as the rest, and then bend or slide it up to be perfectly in tune. It helps them that they only have a tonic and fifth drone in the background, if even that - harmony doesn't work too well here. Blues/rock guitarists who used lots of microtones, like Stevie Ray Vaughan and Duane Allman, generally did so against a sparse background of just bass and drums.

Pablo Casals was often criticized in his lifetime for his "creative intonation", until people realized that he sounded better than any other cello player up to that point. Musicians who play with 90 other people in a symphony orchestra understandably have to rein these urges in. Some if not most live rock albums sound off to me, because electric guitarists invariably play sharp as they get more adrenalized and squeeze the neck harder. Better living through chemistry might play a part here too, of course.

There's a wierd relationship between relative pitch and tone that I read an explanation of somewhere, durned if I remember where. The point was that sharp notes sound more trebly*.

*(this is a real word, I looked it up)

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Bob,
I feel this applies to your other post about pitch problems on a recording as well.

I consider tuning the guitar a tool to use in order to help in playing the guitar relatively in tune and harmoniously with the other instruments and singers who are also involved in performing with you at that same time. After spending 5 to 10 minutes tuning my pedal steel guitar the rest is up to me. Once a drummer mentioned to me that he had played with a steel player who spent a much longer time tuning up his instrument than I did. He wasn’t saying this because he heard pitch problems with my performance, just that he thought it was interesting. My explanation to that is from my experience, getting the guitar closer to perfectly in tune does not help me play the guitar in tune any better than compared to my tuning it for about 10 minutes. I don’t claim to play perfectly in tune and yes I do hear pitch inconsistencies with some of my recorded projects, but I attribute that to my own abilities and focus, and not the way I tuned or didn’t tune the guitar. I am in no way advocating playing out-of tune, but there are times when as long as you’re close enough to being in tune, the attitude and the feel are more important, and pitch may rightfully take a back seat. An example is the link I posted below. At this particular session, the guitar player wanted me to play one of the lead solos in a cover of ZZ Top’s Sharp Dressed Man. They wanted it to be played aggressively, sort of a like an angry guitar rocker and obviously not too country sounding. I casually tuned my steel about an hour or two before it would be time for me to play. I played along to the track with a distorted sound. When I was done, I said should I tune now and do it again. Everyone was excited and thought it was perfect the way it was and saw no reason to do it again. The bottom line was I knew I could probably play with better intonation if I did it a few more times, but I knew I couldn’t guarantee that the attitude would be more appropriate or that they would even like it as much, so I said OK, that’s it then. I’m sure they’ll be those that disagree, and I fully understand their point of view, but I’m proud of this particular recording even with its pitch imperfections, because everyone involved felt it was “just right” for what we were doing.
http://204.202.15.194/mfmp3s/Sharp%20Dressed%20Steel.mp3

Below are some posts I’ve previously made here on The Forum, that I feel are appropriate with this particular topic. And no I don’t feel as though I’m contradicting myself with what I said above.

In my experience, for the most part, unless they’re experienced with recording the pedal steel, guitar players, engineers, producers, singers, etc., with relatively very good “musical ears” can’t tell when a pedal steel part is out of tune, unless it’s way out. At a recent session, when listening to the psg track I just recorded, I said I guess I need to redo that pitchy part going into the chorus, and the other part where I sort of stumbled over myself. No one heard it or knew what I was talking about. But when doing electric guitar overdubs, they all heard much subtler discrepancies in pitch and execution. It seems as though they’re very used to hearing the 6-string guitar, and know exactly what they want to hear or not to hear, but when it comes to the psg, they like the sound of it and figure if the player played it, they must have wanted to play it that way, so it must be good. From these kinds of experiences I’ve learned when they say that was great, let’s move on to the next, it may not be so. I realize of course, that it’s my job to do my best to please them, so that should be enough. But IF the session dynamics allow, from now on, I will politely ask if I can listen back to the track myself, to make sure it’s the best that it can be. This also doesn’t guarantee anything, because I can easily over-look a not too good part, or be over-sensitive about something that may not even end up being in the final mix. I’ve also learned to ask if it’s okay to do another take, so they can pick and choose between the two in order to insure they’ll get what they need. Of course, since I won’t be there for the final portion of mixing, choosing the best of the available tracks will be up to whoever is there and in charge. Most of my sessions are for demo purposes or for an artist/group to be able sell a product at gigs, and relatively informal, so I’m not really overstepping my bounds when doing this. But even in less than “professional” recording sessions, they are on a time and money budget. Of course, if I was good enough to execute relatively flawlessly on the 1st or 2nd take, none of this would be an issue, but it’s only on rare occasions I can do that.

Playing in Pitch may be Mental:
Or maybe I have mental problems, but that’s beside the point.
Here is an example from a recent recording session I was involved with.
After listening to a ruff mix of one of the songs, I told the singer/leader that it sounds pitchy at various parts throughout the song. I thought it might be the steel, but I didn’t know for sure. At a later date he went in, and with the producer and engineer took a closer look at the song. They determined that the pedal steel was in tune with the electric guitar, but not the rest of the tracks. The bass guitar sounded in with the acoustic guitar and the piano. Unfortunately, they had me listening to a track of electric guitar which was slightly out of tune, when I played the pedal steel part. The acoustic guitar and piano were not in my mix at that time, and neither was the correct electric guitar part that was in tune. When I came in to redo the pitchy psg part, I listened to only the bass, and acoustic guitar for pitch reference. There appears to be no pitch problem now, with the new track playing along with all the instruments that should be there.
Now to my point!
I played the same steel and it was tuned exactly the same way.
As far as I could tell, I was not making any significant bar placement adjustments in order to play along to the tracks at either session.
Yet, according to the results, I obviously must have been, because there were two different performances.

-- Marc

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Marc, great post - I think it's exactly on the money. I like your "Sharp Dressed Man" solo - it sounds like you're playing a slide-guitar-on-steroids approach, and any "pitchiness" there works with the tune. Tasteful "pitchiness" is OK. Musical context is everything.

This quote: "They determined that the pedal steel was in tune with the electric guitar, but not the rest of the tracks. The bass guitar sounded in with the acoustic guitar and the piano. Unfortunately, they had me listening to a track of electric guitar which was slightly out of tune, when I played the pedal steel part." This is very different than what we're talking about here. If they gave you the wrong reference pitch, you're not playing out of tune. You're just doing what you're paid to do - play in tune with whom you're playing.

Hey, here's where Pro-Tools comes to the rescue, just make a single pitch correction to the entire part, both guitar and steel, to bring them in sync with the rest of the band. Gotta love that modern digital technology for that kind of thing. This ain't Sun Studios, 1956."

Bruce Clarke · From: Spain

Al, could we have some justification for your statement that "Violin players usually play sharp on purpose" This is the first time I have heard about this.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

My Take on the whole tuning issue is:.
How you tune; how you hear intonation and how you play in tune, is all relative to the progression of your training of your EAR.
As you progress in your Ear training(if you train your ear at all) you will find yourself tuning different as you go along; you will find you hear tuning differently when listening as you go along; and you will find yourself playing differently as you go along> In the quest of training your ear.
You cannot train your ear by Tuning. You cannot train your ear by listening. There is only one way to train your ear; and that is by working long and hard with a fixed constant TONE.
Ricky

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

If C can actually become C# or B , I should not have any complaints if I choose it to be C, learn it that way, root, third or fifth, and have it stay C.

Checking it with tuning forks if and when I have doubts or hit a knob inadvertently.

A few thousand gigs later, I'm getting pretty comfortable with it.

EJL

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Here's my whole take on the issue:

Whatever works.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 26 April 2005 at 07:00 PM.]

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

The last chord in the intro to "Brokenheartsville" by Joe Nichols has always struck me as being out of tune. I'm sure this was a top notch steeler, but sure sounds sour to me...anyone else? Or is this an example of being too much in tune?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

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