The Steel Guitar Forum

On a guitar forum, somebody mentioned what a great steel player Garcia was, and I pointed out that he was not, and suggested that people listen to Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, John Hughey, Jimmy Day, Paul Franklin, Hal Rugg, Jimmy Crawford, and Maurice Anderson.

Well, some idiot responded that the guys I mentioned were all "shredders" who overplayed all the time, and didn't know how to properly compliment a singer, or play tastefully or with any kind of emotion. (Unlike Garcia, who was more soulful than any of them.)

All I can say is AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike. You just have to consider the fact that they like distorted sounds along with uncontrolable screaming and jumping, breaking guitars, etc.

And you thought "GREAT! Another wonderful opportunity to start another slag-fest about Garcia! And I can pretend, as always, that it is about something else, rather than just some more same-old negative **** ."

P.S. I can't comment on This Garcia person because I'v never heard him play. But if he plays hard rock there is now way he could compete with the ones you mentioned. Including yourself.

"Shredders" ... ee gads
clearly a comment from someone with no clue of the list above.
Forget him, he knows nothing.

Imagine how those double stringed Contrabass and Violincello, lute, harpsicord and other players felt when wandering the streets of Venice and hearing the "New Horribly Intonated" Bach stuff coming out of every concert hall and juke joint. They probably bonfired their harpsichords and got hurdy gurdys playing them in various stages of drunkenness the rest of their lives...

"Shredders.."

That's a GREAT one..

BBBWWWAAHAHAhahahaa...



EJL

Truth be told, Jerry Garcia was light years ahead of many of the technocrats of steel guitar when it came to artistic interpetaion of a song. He was more than a musician, he was an outstanding artist at anything he did. I saw him play steel live. What he lacked in technical skills was more than made up for with his interpetive abilities. Many of today's steel guitar technocrats lack this. Alot of wasted notes with poor artistic phrasing. Technical babble overplaying while lacking artistic beauty. "Teach Your Children" still is the number one recognized steel guitar song of popular music.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 16 January 2005 at 04:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

Kevin, my friend, you're having a laugh
or taking the piss. Anyway, you cannot be serious.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>"Shredders" ... ee gads
clearly a comment from someone with no clue of the list above.
Forget him, he knows nothing.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But people who know even less than him listen to him and take his opinions seriously.

BTW I do respect Garcia as a guitarist, and for sustaining a career for so many years. I think he really is an important artist. Just not a very accomplished or important steel player.

Kevin said it spot on.

Mike, not important? Holy s**t. How many people got turned on to steel guitar because of him?

Jerry played some cool stuff. Enjoying his steel playing does not have to detract from appreciating other more capable and dedicated steel guitarists. It's all subjective, right?

It all means nothing in the grand scheme of things until you have an ice cream named after you....."Cherry Garcia" courtesy of Ben & Jerry.

Then you know you've made a difference in the world.

I liked Jerry Garcia....he did it his way.

Will you be having sprinkles with that?

I guess that would make Andre Rieu a shredder as well if you try and compare constructs.

Garcia in context is execellent at what he did. To take his music beyond what he did is BS.

I would not call "Teach" an influential steel event. I had heard it many times but didn't become interested in pedal steel until I took a deep breath and played my mother's George Jones, Gary Stewart, and Moe Bandy records around '81.

"light years ahead of many of the technocrats of steel guitar"???? GIMMEABREAK!!!!!!

After listening to the above mentioned "Teach Your Children", in all honesty, I cannot understand what all the hoopla is about. The song in question sounds like to me that UPS delivered the guitar, JG took it out of the case,5 minutes later decided it was in tune,and cut the above mentioned session.

I know I'll get blasted for this, but it's just the way I hear it.

BTW, If I (being an unknown, and a nobody,which i am)had recorded this session,and had the identical sound that Garcia got on it,what would your opinion be??

(and Mike thought he was starting sumpin)

BF

<SMALL>You just have to consider the fact that they like distorted sounds along with uncontrolable screaming and jumping, breaking guitars, etc.</SMALL>

Over the last twenty-odd years I have worked with about every sort of band or orchestra (including, occasionally, Mr. Garcia's various enterprises) that we get out here on the left edge of the continent and I never heard of Jerry Garcia having anything to do with any of the above cited behaviors. Ever.

He was, however, the leader of the only musical ensemble in history to carry a full, free, field hospital TO EVERY GIG to ensure that its fans got proper health care. 300,000 of them at a pop.

Nonetheless, In my short time aboard this forum I have noticed that his name seems to be about as inflammable as any other two words one can utter on this forum (except maybe, MAYBE, JI and ET). Within three posts some serious slag will be flyin', guaranteed!

Jerry Garcia was a truly excellent bluegrass banjo player who got the chance to take a big ride on the rock'n'roll machine. Along the way he successfully showed a lot of other people's clueless kids about the critical importance of good manners in building a quality community.

He was not in any way a "commercial" guitarist (and was years ago discarded as such by hard rockers and blues fans) but spent his career exploring melody, countermelody and harmony and finding intuitive, magical ways to entertwine them. Rather than contriving his music he kept it in the moment. Sometimes the magic worked. Very often it didn't.

His being a bluegrass musician at heart and a rock star by fate, he was in a unique position to introduce traditional American instruments and music to the rock'n'roll generation, many of whom ALSO wanted nothing to do with the above cited behaviors. Unfortunately, he eventually succumbed to an addiction that took his body out.

But for the Grace of God, so there go I.

As a pedal steel player, I don't know of anything that he ever played that most anyone with a little instruction and a bit of practice and intention can learn to play, and sound pretty good doin' it to most normal folks. He played a lot of pretty simple stuff on pedal steel but he played every note on purpose, which was more than I could do when I first heard "Teach Your Children." I can't say I tried to learn every lick he played, but I sure appreciated how they fit the lyrical structure of the song. THAT, my friends, is pedal steel science, and well worthy of study.

The fact that "Teach..." was a commercial success did not in any way lessen the impact to my ears of Buddy Emmons inspired playing all over John Sebastian's "Rainbows All Over Your Blues" and may have had some hand in it's even being released by Reprise for all I know. The first was a door opener, the second I am still learning from. No confusion about who the "great" player is here.

It was just mere coincidence that both these songs arrived not too long after some unknown Nashville session player walked into Giant Music in Arlington, Virgina and showed me how to tune up that little E9 ShoBud Maverick and play a diatonic scale on 3 and 5 (will the mystery man please sign in?). With that information and these two songs I had some great stuff to begin my PSG journey with. It was later that I discovered Leon, Speedy, Curley, TB, JD and Lloyd, some of whom I could learn from, with others I had to be content to just sit and listen in awe. And, my forum brethren, before you write me off as just another "rock" guy you should know that I was studying classical double bass (can you dig Berlioz?) from the Principal of the Army Orchestra in D.C. at the time and playing acoustic guitar at church.

Because of Jerry Garcia's work, good, bad or indifferent, many thousands upon thousands of people heard the pedal steel guitar for the very first time and took it to heart. Some of those thousands are now some of us, and whether or not we can (or even try to) understand each other, every single one of us is worthy of respect.

As for Jerry himself, he quit playing the pedal steel guitar in public long before his untimely end because he was so embarassed by all the acccolades he was receiving from people who had never heard of Buddy, Lloyd, Weldon or JayDee. He had heard and studied those cats for years and he finally put it down because he felt like he wasn't making any progress no matter how much he practiced (sound familiar, anybody?). When asked to play a session, he would say "I really can't play this thing very well, go get a real steel player."

Now, no offense meant or implied, but my most sincere recommendation to all those of you who would never think of buying a Grateful Dead album or have never listened to this guy actually play (Perry and Archie - are you still with me?) is this: Put on a big floppy coat, some dark glasses and a hat and go find a copy of "Workingman's Dead" from about 1970 or so. You can get it online from eBay, Borders or Amazon and nobody has to know what you're doing. Go in with a friend or friends if you are short on dough and/or you want to shorten the risk; buy it cheap in a used vinyl store, whatever, I totally understand, but in any case you must get your hands on this album.

Take it home, lock the door and put on "Dire Wolf" and you will find yourself listening to one of the finest and FUNNEST rides you ever heard, on a real western song with a simple sound but a VERY complex chord structure. No, the riffs are not hard ones but the usage of the instrument is perfect.

The bonus: If you happen to like old-time backwoods gospel string band music you will probably also like the first track, "Uncle John's Band"; if bluegrass is your thing you'll for sure enjoy "Cumberland Blues" as the country electric guitar gives way to bluegrass banjo and four-part harmonies. There's even a bit of laid back country blues in there.

Throughout this album you will find every song to be thoughtfully written and produced and from front to back you will not find anything remotely resembling "distorted sounds" OR "uncontrolable screaming" but when you are done you will know something that you don't know now.

In the end if you decide you don't want to keep it send me an email and I'll buy it back from you and get it to someone who does (at least until my wife stops me).

In any case, let's try to remember the CRITICAL importance of good manners in building a quality community.

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<font size="2"><img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, Randall Steelman 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion</font>
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[this post edited endlessly because I just can't spell that many words all at once.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 16 January 2005 at 11:16 PM.]</p></FONT>

If you want to hear "Teach Your Children" at its best, There ia a cut with Crosby, Suzy Boggus, Alisson Krause and Kathy Mattea on the vocal. None other than Paul Franklin on steel guitar. Awesome. I'm with you Mike. Jody.

I have a psg in my office. When people ask about it, I run through a few things on it to show them what the instrument is and what it can do. The one that makes them light up every time is the opening bars of "Teach". "Oh Yeah", they say, with big smiles on their faces. That sound on that song made a lot of people feel happy, turned a lot of people onto the instrument, and is burned into the memories of a whole generation. To this day, when it comes on the radio, all kinds of people are happy to hear it. And nothing anybody says on this Forum is gonna change that.

There is a big difference between being technically adept and being a musician and musical. Bill F. if you had done Teach, I would have thought just as much of it would you? There are many great simple songs and melodys.
Garcia and Teach always have this response, because this Forum will always have these factions of players, those like myself who never heard of any of the other side's heroes like Emmons, Green,or Franklin,and like myself grew up with Poco and New Riders and Dead.
Now that I'm learning steel, I know some of these names and appreciate the musicianship, and I'm sure you on "the other side" of the Garcia thing love music as much as myself. But to this day when I hear Teach, I can name that tune in 1 note, and still love it as a song. Whether JC was a technical master of the steel or not really doesn't matter, does it? JimP

To Jon Light: hehe, that's a good one!

To Dave Grafe: thanks for a well-thought out, heartfelt post.

As for me, I really don't have anything to add except to say "Who cares?" Sometimes you just have to turn the other cheek and let folks have their own opinions.

Bill Ford, you're my friend. And Dave Grafe, I could not have summed up the Garcia-steel thing any better. Of course he was not a "master" of the pedal steel. I would not trust ANYBODY who said they had completely mastered ANY instrument. But that ride on "Teach," and probably Toy Caldwell's out-of-tune intro on "Fire on the Mountain," have led tons of people to this instrument. Course, now I know who the REAL big guns are, and I know what excellence in steel guitar sounds like. But Garcia's "Teach" was a musical milestone for a lot of us----and the song's message STILL holds true!

Jerry played pretty...
That is as important as any amount of chops IMHO.

I also note when the anti-Jerry slagging starts I never have seen
Big E, Lloyd Jay Dee, John Hughey, Doug J. or any other "marque steeler" saying ANYTHING bad about him.

If you don't think he was important, well then your only looking a a small part of the big picture.
He made your country steel music accessable to people
who would NEVER have listened to it coming from your direction.
If that's not important, what is?

There is no right or wrong here. A man's opinion is his own but I do love a good debate.

I think what made "Teach" a great song was it's simplicity, a booming flat top guitar, good vocal harmonies and the pretty steel, nothing over produced there, no keyboard, electric guitar, string section, etc. JG did a great job, nothing in the song to distract from the steel, simple chord progression. he surely did not walk all over the vocals. Maybe this illustrates a biblical principle, "the foolish confound the wise"