how do you.....

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

after you learn the intro how do you figure out how to play the rest of the song? many tabs only show the intro and the turnaround . then what????

thanks folks
calvin

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Are you asking how to learn the rest of the song as far as just the steel parts go (fills, pads, comping, what have you), or are you asking how to learn the rest of the song in terms of the melody and the chord changes?

-Travis

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Calvin, you will get to a point where you can play a lot of what you hear without using tablature. But you can play effectively in lots of situations before you get to that point. The first step is to understand which parts of the song you will be playing fill in and which parts you won't be playing at all. If you can't play exactly what you're hearing on the record, try to come up with a tasteful approximation, always keeping in mind that the worst mistake you can make in a gig situation is overplaying - less is more.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Calvin the basic thing is to find the chords on your instrument in their most basic form for the song.
I III V and sometimes with VII,
in 1 of the 3-4 inversions posible.

You ususally can use any two notes of the triad and let them hang till the next change, ;eaving you time to figure how to slide there, or block and move there.

After that map where they go and pick simple parts from those possibles.

The 1st step is looking at the chord pattern and finding it's parts.
Remember less can be more, especially when backing vocals and another pickers fill section.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Calvin, this is not to sound off the wall..but the Steel is no different than any other musical Instrument in understanding the Instrument.

If you are learning licks and phrases and are not certain where they are coming from and have not yet concquered WHAT THE STEEL is doing for the musician then you still have some homework to do.

Are you studying by Tab alone ?

Many musicians ( all Instruments ) are caught in the middle of the bridge..they can play some things very nicely but once they are out of that "This is what I can do" mode are at a stand still.

A friend came over last week , he was playing some very fine stuff..( from tab )but was lost when he was not playing his stuff..

Here is what I recommended and what I recommend.

Put the TAB away.( if you are using it)

Listen to a nice Country song that you know in your head..not one you don't know..

Play simple chords behind it, write a chord chart ( important excercise here) . Then after you think you have it understood, play it over and over again with different chord positions..not licks, not phrases, just simple 3 note chords .

This sounds very boring, and it is..but it is a rudiment..

some examples of what I am talking about using only strings 3,4,5....4,5,6....5,6,8...6,8,10

D on 1 st fret A ped F lever
D7 on first fret F lever
D7 on 3rd fret B ped,Eb Lever
D on 5th fret AB peds
D7 on 8th fret A ped
d on 10th fret no peds

this is very basic but you get the point..

and of course the variants that can be applied using the 1 st and 2 nd strings for passing phrases..( simple 7ths)

You should be able to do this in any key, any basic chord format in AUTO PILOT.

Do this with as many songs as you can and do it everyday for awhile...

Instruments like the Steel and certainly the Piano thrive on tonal characteristics of different triads(3 note positions) up and down the fretboard or keyboard.

A very automatic understanding of positions with different string grips and all of a sudden you will hear the phrases that you hear on records, and even better, when you hear a phrase on record you will know where it comes from, or at least close...

This is the part about learning Instruments that many leave out..and end up stuck in the middle of the bridge..

I don't know if you are learning by TAB alone, TAB all by itself is in my opinion not a good thing. It should be in ADDITION to other hands on studies.

I described TAB to my friend as ...

getting driving directions across town without street names..

Take a left then two rights, another left..go stright for awhile then take another left and then a right..

Study the theory of your Instrument, even in it's most simple capacity..theres no gettin' around it..

This Instrument is capable of playing enormous amounts of music with minimal formal knowledge..but ya gotta know what it is doing for you......

My feeling is that TAB should be used going backwards to see how another player or teacher approaches things..

good luck

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 January 2005 at 05:33 AM.]

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

You have,no doubt, heard the expression: Good musicians know when NOT to play. The key to playing the "fill" behind singers is to only inject a lick when they are NOT singing. Fill in the empty spaces when the singer pauses. You can get a feel for this by listening to recordings. Good, tasty "fill licks" come from the heart.....JD

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

thanks folks
look for more questions soon lol

calvin

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Calvin, Tony gave some excellent advice. You will reach a point where you start to learn where certain sounds and chords are found on the instrument. Only then can you begin "winging it", and playing stuff without a chart or tab. Stick with it, and you'll get better each passing week. I'd also suggest starting with some very simple songs, like "Cold, Cold Heart", or "Please Release Me", and progress to more complex and faster songs as you are able to. There's a boatload of other old 3-chord country songs that will teach you much about playing without any aids. Once you understand how to "build" a whole simple song around just it's chords, it's simply a matter of expanding slowly on what you're doing, and going to more complex, faster, material. A lot of beginning steelers want to learn to play all the famous intros and rides right off the bat, but that's not what music is about...it's about the song!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 11 January 2005 at 09:06 AM.]

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

ok what i have done is , i have copy of
"mel bays" back-up pedal steel guitar by Dewitt Scott
its got a whole bunch of fills in it and they are tabs but it shows what cord or is it note ? that the fill is in, for example
fill # 8 shows strings 3-5 fret 10 a&b pedals sliding to fret 13 no pedals then 13 sliding to fret 15 and this fill is marked as a G7. am i on the right track doing this ?? the fills sound god awful just playing them by themselves (of course i 'm sure my playing has a lot to do with that )...i just want to be sure that i'm going at this right

[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 11 January 2005 at 10:24 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Calvin,
You need a TEACHER. Even if it's just a lesson every month or two -- however far you have to drive. You will thank me for this advise. If the stuff you're playing out of Scotty's book sounds bad, there's something you're not doing right. It's much easier for a good player to watch you and give you pointers than it is for us to guess what you need to know.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Chuck Cusimano · From: Weatherford, Texas, USA

Calvin, The more you listen to the kind of music you're wanting to play, the more you'll notice what the player (On the record) has done with it.

COLORADO STEEL PLAYER: If you can find him, there is a great steel player in the Denver area named ERNIE MARTINEZ. (Ernie, do you get on the forum?)

He is an outstanding example of what a steel players job is all about, and he is a really good guy. I know he teaches (many instruments) and has a full schedule. I used to have his phone #, but when I moved to Texas, I lost a lot of phone #s. Maybe you can find him and pick his brain. I'm sure you'll get some great advice here on this forum also.

I liked the comment that playing fills came from the heart. I agree. Your head (KNOWLEGE)has a little to do with it, your hands deliver the notes, but the heart pours the SOUL into the tone, and feeling.

Play it like you love it!

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

as many of you already know i am from colorado, but we have been on the road for the past 4 years at the moment we are about to leave san marcos texas and go to mission texas . we have to be there on monday so if anyone is in the area of mission / mc allen texas would sure like to hear from you

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Isn't Chuck Lettes nearby there.
He would be a great teacher.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Calvin - Call me when you get here. I'm in McAllen.

682-3053 Home
668-6294 Work

Lee

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Calvin, I am not sure if this will help you or not but I sit for hours and listen and play along as much as I can.

There is a satellite and/or cable music channel that plays exclusively old classic country music. Many, if not most of the songs played are rarely more than three chord tunes or songs. In many cases the steel guitar input is very basic and simple, some of it is done with a non-pedal steel, so is very easy to follow.

I tape certain songs and play along at different speeds until I have learned all the steel playing as per the record; then, I begin to experiment with different chord runs on my own. I don't worry about running into or through sour notes or chords; however, this has moved me back to the bottom shelf where I have learned tons by doing the bare basics of chording on the steel guitar. I now enjoy putting my own sound and style behind these old tunes.

If you are a recent beginner on the steel, don't even attempt to copy or duplicate the Emmons or Lloyd Greens sounds or style. Do "your own" thing and learn to love it. I think we have enough copy cats in the world.

------------------
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

The question was asked:

"after you learn the intro how do you figure out how to play the rest of the song?"

Oh my! Time for me to stick my neck out here....
Pedal Steel is *almost* unique in that it has a "sound" that many people respond to on a visceral level. The result is an intense desire to "be able to make that sound."
Sorry to say, many people don't have a musical bone in their body and think that making music is about the *mechanics* of playing (where is the bar? Which frets? Which strings? How do you do that?).
Well, it ain't. Music is Music. The instrument is just a way of expressing it-- of letting out of what is IN YOU.
So here, on the forum, we see all sorts of questions about the "how do you play this lick..." and not much about "how did you conceive of doing THAT with the song?"
The first is about the mechanics, and the second is about playing.
I've seen this happen with steel and with other instruments as well. There are many "classical" players who can read fine, and play in an orchestra and yet have no music in them-- aside from, perhaps, a sense of rhythm.
I've seen it at folkie parties where there are a bunch of celtic players (whistle, fiddle, mandolin) who can play the NOTES of the tune but have *no idea* about the art of it and the embellishments. Certainly it gives them happiness to play these tunes with others, but they are not exploring the *music* of it all. Same thing with some old-time banjo players (and even Scruggs style players)-- they know the tunes, but they have no idea about the music.
And the bottom line is MUSIC.
So... advice? I agree that many tab books are useful AFTER you lear how to play. Find someone who plays and talk to them. Listen to music. Try to understand how it is put together. Learn to HEAR the changes-- at least those that use a I, IV, and V chord.
Until you master that, you will struggle with the instrument.

JW

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Brilliant, Mr. Winston. Yes, we all want the boiled-down version of what it takes to play this thing....But you're right - it's about music.

Before my foray into steel, I sought out an amazing jazz guitar player for advice on all those complex sounds...and what did he tell me?..."If you want to get good at patterns and licks, practice patterns and licks. If you want to get good at finding, you have to practice searching."

So it seems where ever you go, whatever instrument you tackle, there is going to be a guy at the top of the game saying "hear the music, find the sounds."

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

well i guess i'm going to go out on a limb here folks , i'll bet that even the best players had to learn the basic's before they could play very well...i do understand what winnie was saying however i don't think anyone could just sit down and start playing without first getting to a point that they aren't getting tangles in the strings , developing some degree of cordination and so forth.. it would seem the old saying would apply...you have to learn to crawl before you can walk...then in 5-10 years you can learn to walk a tight rope....

thanks fellas
calvin

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

You've gotten some very good advice here, Calvin. One of the difficulties with this kind of question is that, within reason, we all learn and take in information in different ways. Some folks love Tab, and can really absorb licks and content that way, others must copy by ear, or see it done... "Solo" Pedal steel would be a different kind of pursuit, but most people want to play along with others. Just for a moment let's look at what's going on with the average "playing" situation, whether it's a pro bandstand gig, playing with friends on the porch or alone with some tracks:

A song is being played, which you may already "know" or not, with either vocals or some instrumental melody.
You want to play along, adding appropriate, tasteful parts to compliment the melody/chords the other musicians (or tracks) are playing.
You need to know what to play, when to play it, and how to make it up on the spot- (unless you stick to memorized tunes for your whole career).
You need to eventually "hear" or understand all of this process internally so that you can spontaneously create those tasteful parts.

The bad news: this absolutetly takes time, dedication, and study. The Good news: It can be done and there are lots of tools to help!
You can approach this, as many have, with many years of listening and copying others. The shortcuts lie in finding what works best for you to get you fastest to points 3 & 4 above. My suggestion: learn music theory with a complete grasp of how the (Nashville) Number System fits the kind of music you like and listen to. (In simplest terms, How a song in G that moves from G-C-D is the "same" as the same (or a similar) song in Bb moving from Bb-Eb-F, or in C moving C-F-G). All of the points above can be studied, cataloged, and remembered through the application of basic theory, as well as giving you a framework to understand what others have played before. Theory knowledge is what all the pros and talented amatuers use, whether they know it or not! Many players don't think they know much theory, but they've internalized it by listening and copying for years. Studying theory directly just cuts out a lot of searching! Building a catalog of all your "licks" and when and where to use them is all a process of personalizing basic music theory.
Look through the forum for posts on theory for a good start, and start listening to music from that standpoint- you'll start to hear the common ways people connect chords and phrases. Music is a language, and when you learn the basic rules of "speech and grammar" you can then find your own voice (as Winnie refers to). Although some people can find their way on their own, I agree with Larry that it sounds like you really need a good teacher to guide you. Just as we all learn in different ways, everyone teaches differently. Hopefully you can find someone who sees how you think and take in information, and can tailor their teaching style to help you advance. Best of luck!

------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

I've been thinking about this one.
As I said, that "visceral response" to the steel often has people *who have never played anything* want to give it a try.
And THAT is a problem.
Using myself as an example.... When I was 9 my parents sent me to "music school" each Saturday where I had an hour of "appreciation" (hearing/learning rhythms, playing some basic instruments (xylophone, recorders, etc.) and then a half hour of piano lessons with an appallingly bad teacher.
When I was 10 and at a summer camp, a girl taught me three chords on a guitar (D, G, A7), and I played them for almost three years. Along the way, I realized that there must be others because there were songs where those three chords just didn't fit (basic ear training, I guess).
When I was 13 I found a guitar teacher and learned a bunch of stuff in the way of chords and accompaniment. (ways of getting from a I to a IV and back-- bass runs, etc.)
When I was 14 I found the 5-string banjo and Travis style guitar playing. My teacher couldn't teach me that. I started to hang out at Washing Square Park on Sundays, watching, absorbing, and learning. I learned how to play banjo all on my own from watching and listening. Same with Travis style guitar. I've NEVER used tablature-- mainly because when I was learning, there WAS NONE!
Along the way I found folks I could play with and learned about ensemble playing in the context of a bluegrass band. In that context I played both banjo and guitar.
By the time I got to play steel, I KNEW all that other stuff. And, I had a good "picture" in my head of what I wanted the steel to do.
I was playing for three months when I did my first gig. Of great help was the fact that I could "read" the chords by looking at the guitarists hand. I saw where they were and when they moved. (I always sit to the right of the guitarist so I can look over!)

So...all of that background is, I guess, unspoken. Knowing that most music we hear is 3/4 or 4/4 is something so basic that it remains unsaid-- as is the rest-- how to interact with a vocalist, how to play in an ensemble, how to not get in the way of other instruments, how to lead into a verse with an appropriate fill....

Starting with the steel as your first instrument is a very difficult thing because there is all that OTHER stuff that's needed to really use it effectively.

JW

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Well said Winnie. That's why I won't take on a steel student unless he/she can already play another instrument and has had some experience playing in bands.The pedal steel is already very challenging even for a seasoned jazz guitar player.I want a student who has questions like "show me some II-V-I turnarounds" because it's just too monumental of an effort to teach OR learn theory AND steel technique - and like Winnie said you can't replace years of listening,gleaning,jamming,hanging out with your heros,picking their brains and going thru their record collections,learning to play standards,improvise and most importantly - realtime "sink or swim" onstage experience. I guess that's why w/few exceptions most good steel players are middle aged men. -MJ-

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Sorry, Calvin - I was responding to Winnie's entry and admittedly missing the spirit of your topic.

The steel is too complex to really consider as an entry-level musical instrument, as M. Johnstone implied.

I took a couple lessons with Herb Steiner, and let me tell you, seeing an accomplished player address the instrument and make those sounds come out is great. As Larry Bell wisely said. a TEACHER makes a world of difference.

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