The Steel Guitar Forum

Back when Denny Turner's C6 modal theory charts were being examined by us, I stumbled upon superimposing E major and minor blues scales over the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings and found out that I could go from the 4th fret E6 chord to the 1st fret on the same strings with the high E string added (thanks Denny) and then jump up to the 11th fret B6 chord before heading back to E6. It sounded very familiar to me like a pedal steel but I didn't know why, I think I know why now. The 1st fret chord relative to the E6 chord is a secondary dom. chord built off the 5th of the E6's 5 chord, the B6 position (F#). This gives us a II7 - V7 - I progression, the classic Hawaiian vamp that you can play twice at the beginning and end of a Hawaiian song and at the end of each verse. You can use this vamp to Hawaiianize any song. I was calling it E6 Lydian before, but now think it is the secondary dom. of the 5 chord in E. Have any of y'all used this approach before and why does it sound so much like a pedal steel? Thanks...

The F#9 secondary dom. notes are from the 1st string down to the 4th string at the 1st fret:
E(b7)..open
C#(5)..1st fret
A#(3rd)1st fret
G#(9th)1st fret

You can see the familiar C#m7 tuning (excluding the A#, which would make it E6sus ) that Sol Hoppii used, the E6 tuning is it's relative major key, ah ha!

Holy Cow! Those are the same notes as Dick McIntire's F#9 tuning.

This Hawaiian vamp consists of 1 measure of the II7, 1 measure of the V7 and 2 measures of the I chord. This is a turnaround that I became aware of from a uke book. It's application for country swing is pretty cool sounding, I start with the 1 chord for 2 measures, secondary dom. for 2 measures and the 5 chord for 2 measures, then back to the 1 chord for 2 measures, improvising around the individual chord box's. This is a 8 measure progression which is used in swing and country.


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 17 December 2003 at 10:19 AM.]</p></FONT>

Brad, could you please fix the spelling in the topic section, thanks.

Thats why I like the "number system" so much ... lets you see things clearly:

Key of E

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
(Fret) <B>STRINGS
4 3 2 1</B>

(0) 1
(1) 3 5b 6
(2)
(3)
(4) 5 6 1 3 Homebase
(5)
(6)
(7)
(8)
(9)
(10)
(11) 2 3 5 7 V position
(12) 1


I = 1 3 5
II9 = 2 5b 6 1 3
V7 = 5 7 2 4
</pre></font>

Th PSG sound may be associated with the 5 to 5b back to 5 oscillation, while keeping the 3 & 6 constant ... ????

A more typical approach would revolve around the 4th or 11th frets ... playing single notes
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>

(Fret) <B>STRINGS
4 3 2 1</B>

(0)
(1)
(2) 4 5 2
(3) 5b 7
(4) 5 6 1 3 Homebase
(5)
(6)
(7)
(8)
(9) 4
(10) 5b
(11) 2 3 5 7 V
(12) 4 1
(13) 5b 6
(14) 2

</pre></font>

90% of my "turnarounds" are based at the "Homechord I (6th)" position and the "V" position.

Lots of room for improvisation on "them turns" ... as long as they basically end with ... 4 5 7 1 ... <font size=2> Sneak a 2 between the 7 and 1 to get real fancy</font>

Usin' that open E is a good argument for tunin' the E "straight up" in your JI steel tuning (like JB does).

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<font size=1>www.horseshoemagnets.com </font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 11 December 2003 at 07:28 AM.]</p></FONT>

Yea, that's cool Rick, sounds nice. I like the 9th between the 7th and the 1. So the first 2 notes of your turn around could fit the secondary dom, then the next 2 notes would fall on the 5 chord and the last note on the 1 chord, which is the root note of the 1 chord, resolved. Man that's boppin isn't it! Stacey Phillips book on early Hawaiian is mostly in GBDGBD tuning, but the notes and phrasing can be used on any tuning to learn those classic old timey Hawaiian licks. Thanks...

Thanks Andy, nice job. Doesn't get any cooler than that. Right on with the right on's! You can hear those classic blues turn arounds that blues players in the know use all the time, who do you think came up with them first, the Hawaiians or the blues guys down south? I really like the one that sounds like the theme in "Hula Blues".<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 11 December 2003 at 08:46 AM.]</p></FONT>

Neither ... Cadences have been around a long, long time

Rick, that's a great site, I enjoyed listening to the musical examples. I was speaking in terms of the pet turn arounds (licks) that the Hawaiians used that are the same as the Delta blues men? Which group came up with them first, not the chords, the pet turn around licks?

Cool site - Rick. I think I need to pass the "lord of the links" baton over to you.

Jesse, I knew what you meant ... hence the ...

I'd have to give the "nod" to the Hawaiians for the more standard licks like ...

5 ... 5b ... 5 ... 4 ... 5 ... 7 ... 1

Slack Key guitar playing really revolves around the II7 (IIm) - V7 - I cadence ... and it was around before the steel was born ...

And according to Bob Brozman ...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The oldest blues of 1890-1920 tends to have little or no change of chord harmony, simply melody over the grooving tonic chord. Gradually, from 1920-1940 blues musicians added more sophisticated Western harmonies.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


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<font size=1>www.horseshoemagnets.com </font>

That seems logical. I always wondered why Jimmie and Stevie Ray Vaughn were into Hawaiian music and stuff? Man, what a cool connection.

I was comparing the upper 4 strings found on the C#m7 tuning and can see that lowering the E's on C6 down to Eb gives the same intervals as C#m7, but down a half step. The A would act like the A# found in Dick McIntire's F#9 tuning but inverted in octave for a F9 sound. You could play a quasi Cm7 this way and kinda get Sol Hoppii and Dick McIntires solo/chordal sound, since they did alot of stuff on the upper 4 strings.

Now THIS is why this is the best music forum around. What a lesson, thanks guys!