Lead Guitarists that Steal... Your Solos!!!!

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 3 Jul 2004 11:48 pm

Last night I played music with a local "bar-band". Every time it would be just about a good time for a steel-solo, this lead guitarist would walk on me and play a guitar part.

Funny thing is, he normally is a great picker, respectful of my space. It was their first "big" show, and I think he lost his mind or something. For the last song, he turned his amp up so loud, it was painful. Wierd huh!!???

Wayne Baker
Handsomest Steel Player in Georgia

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 4 Jul 2004 12:00 am

...I think he lost his mind...

~~~~~~~~~~~
That'll teach him to keep it in a safer place next time!!

------------------
<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 4 Jul 2004 2:12 am

Are You sure they were your solos?

He said you were trying to steel his solos and everybody knows steelers have the biggest amps, at least two of them.

and Clyde Bloodworth said he is the most handsome steeler in Georgia

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 04 July 2004 at 03:14 AM.]

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 4 Jul 2004 4:24 am

I know the feeling Wayne.....or how about the singer coming in on your instumental? I was playing "The Other Woman" with the Fiddle player not long ago and the Singer came up to the mike and started singing it,
while the Tele player helped us out by playing open chords all through the tune.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 4 Jul 2004 4:50 am

Wayne,
I know thaat guy, I worked with him !!!!!!

John,
(Clyde Bloodworth said he is the most handsome steeler in Georgia ) It's his hairdo, or lack of...jus kiddin Clyde.

BF

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jul 2004 5:15 am

Big Show = Big Ego ( kinda Rhymes)

Just have a gentle heart to heart with him next time ya see him..

1 of 2 things will revealed...

I get to work with a very fine talented young Tele' picker who shares space all the time..every now and then he plays the same licks I am playing then looks over and smiles..saying..see I can do that too! then I play the same licks again but extend the phrases up the fret board to the octave and beyond..then he frowns..and I get to look at him and smile !

Sharing space and not stepping on toes..you either learn it or ya don't. There's no middle ground.

t

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 4 Jul 2004 5:34 am

I have the same problems with the guitarist sitting in with my band. Guitarists are intimidated by steelers. And there's only room for one alpha male guitar hero in the band...me.

:>)

cheers,
Drew

------------------
Drew's Website

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 4 Jul 2004 5:53 am

I once had a bass player that thought he had a lead instrument.So I led him to the door.

------------------

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 4 Jul 2004 5:55 am

Every band should have a band leader. One person has to be in charge. The band leader should LEAD and arrange the songs.
If that person does not tell you to play ... he is not a leader OR he doesn't want you to play.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 4 Jul 2004 5:57 am

here in Nashville that`s called "overplaying" and it will get you fired from the gig so fast it will make your head spin.I played a gig where the bass player wanted a steel in the band but the lead player (singer) started playing so loud I had a headache after the gig,I never played that gig again.

Db

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Jul 2004 6:57 am

"I have the same problems with the guitarist sitting in with my band. Guitarists are intimidated by steelers"

INDEED many of them are. It goes way back. I do not seeing it changing either. When the new kid on the block simply plays the world's most beautiful instrument, it is only natural (because of the wickedness of man) that deep seeded envy's develop.

Nothing will EVER convince me that the "Boots Randolph, Floyd Cramer, Chet Atkins show" was minus THE world's most beautiful instrument accidently.

NO way. It was as designed that way as anything ever was. And most steel players who gives it a bit of thought, will certainly say,

"Yeppers!"

Oh well,

carl

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Jul 2004 8:31 am

THE world's most beautiful instrument

Carl, if all you were evaluating was the C6 tuning, with a 5 floor pedal, 4 knee lever copedent, would you still say it's the "world's most beautiful instrument", and if so, why? How is it better than piano, guitar, and sax for example? Please keep in mind the most common ways it is used, for western swing and traditional jazz. Thanks. .. Jeff

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 4 Jul 2004 8:33 am

There;s a great band out this way called "American Made.",They ised to be 6 pieces, Now they are down to 5.

When they had 6 members, they had a dedicated guitarist, a dedicated keyboard player, a fiddler who also played guitar and mandolin, and a steel player who also played Banjo, Harmonica and sax.

The way they handle having 4 lead players in the band is to make written outlines of every tune, and assign each fill and ride to one of the players. Each member knows when it is their turn to play, and when they have to lay out.

The result is that the band not only avoids the chaos of having more than one player trying to play at the same tume, there is a great deal of variety in each tune because the fills and rides are constantly being played on different instruments.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Jul 2004 9:42 am

There's two ways to approach this. First off, nobody forces you to play in a band where they won't let you "shine" once in awhile. Part of being a good band is giving everyone a chance to do their thing. Try to make your point about "trading off" rides and backup parts. If it doesn't work...well, you always have the right to pack up and go elsewhere.

Secondly, if'n you wanna stay, Tony has the right idea. I don't hear any lead players (no matter how good they are) emulating John Hughey's style. If what you're playing is easily copped by the lead man on a Tele, then play what he can't! Too many steelers try to exist playing what can easily be played by an Alvin Lee type just bending strings, or some dude with a Hip-Shot or other B-bender. S-t-r-e-t-c-h out those pedal moves, "milk" all those harmonies for all their worth. Play with those "expanded" chords and octave voicings that country lead players don't usually play. Play those l-o-n-g chords that sound more like an organ, and "hang" those single notes like a fiddle player does (unless you've already got a fiddle player). Learn the "C" pedal. Play those sliding harmonics (like Buddy's "Another Bridge To Burn" intro), and do those 1st, 2nd and 3rd register harmonics often.
In short, if you want to be an essential part of the band, play a wide variety of stuff...and play it well. Sadly, the days when we could hold a job just by playing Bud Issacs stuff are gone.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Jul 2004 10:24 am

Jeff,

Your post is very poignant indeed. I hesitate to answer you, for fear of causing great animosity.

But since you asked I feel it only right to oblige. Before I do, I wish to state once again the following is my opinion only.

The answer Jeff, is a resounding no IF, you discount Buddy Emmons and maybe Curly Chalker. And possibly a select few others. I will explain.

Since the standard C6 PSG is very limited IMO (excluding under the hands of BE, JD Walters and CC), gives me nothing (when I hear it played) but a poor emulation of a regular lead guitarist playing a series of melody chords.

IE, muting each chord while preparing for the next gripped chord. And IMO, that type of playing does not bring out the world's most beautiful instrument.

As you say, it is little different than a piano who can do the same thing (all except unison notes), or the sax jammin' like I have heard endlessly at every steel guitar convention I have gone to. And for me it has in most cases been quite boring and it has said nothing to me musically.

Again, this is NOT the case when it comes to Buddy, JD or Chalker and a few select others. If one doubts this, simply listen to a recording and play it softly and if possible a little slower, and listen to the missed notes, the inaccurate slurred voicings that missed the fret more often than not during a "jamming" session. Even by some of the "greats".

No true Jazz officiando or Big Band leader or concert maestro would tolerate this for one second, IMO.

Under the fingers of Buddy and Curly, of course, this was never the case. But all to often the C6 PSG neck is far from the world's most beautiful instrument IMO. It IS in the hands of Jerry Byrd. There is not a musical instrument ever been that IMO, can even come close to the awesome beauty of what Jerry Byrd gets out of the tuning he created.

Further I will go to my grave believing that at least some of the negativism concerning our chosen instrument is due to the above stigma in the minds of sooo many non steel players.

Let me give you just one example. As some of you know I assisted at the soundboard for years (videoing) for Scotty. And many was the time when I could tell (as I looked around) by the looks of sooooooo many wives and non playing friends; as well as some players: that they were indeed bored to tears, when the incessant and often overly long "jamming" became part of the trademark of "how" to dazzle the audience playing the Pedal steel guitar on C6.

And yet most of these SAME people were noticably enjoying it and loving it when a player like Tom Brumley or LLoyd Green, etc, would whisk and feather their ears with indeed the world's most beautiful instrument when playing unprecedented beauty on E9th.

But more than that, the C6 neck fell into that same category IMO, by maestros (like again Buddy and Curly) and of course a very few others.

If I had my wish (it's never going to happen), the "jamming" part or the "stop-gap" chording (mentioned above) where even the backup musicians play the same old tired and boring notes/chords over and over ad-infinitym would simply fade into the sunset. Lest there be any doubt IMO, jamming is as far from Jazz as Roy Acuff was from Enrique' Carusso.

The audience generally does not like it. Obviously I don't care for it, and I imagine some other steel players don't, if the truth be known. But then I say things others would not dare say, even when they feel it.

I can not help but beieve that more often than not, the only real enjoyment is in the minds of the players themselves as some appear to go into another universe while doing it. To the deference that the audience is even there, let alone enjoying it.

So Jeff the answer is NO, excluding those I mentioned. But it never had to be this way. And IMO, the steel guitar, as Jerry Byrd said LONG LONG ago, was never designed to be a chording instrument. Further he went on to state,

"you can tune and/or play a steel guitar exactly to any chord a regular guitar player tunes or picks, and it still won't sound the same!"

I rest my case on Jerry's prophetic words.

Finally, a post like this usually garners great animosity or subtle and sometimes cleverly disguised hate. But then the purest man who ever walked on this earth, faced that also when he spoke his mind.

May HE bless you Jeff always, and may he bless all of the rest of you,

carl

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Jul 2004 10:56 am

Well. At the risk of being bashed by the more sensitive souls here I might opine:

(What MP says is the best scenario, and I'm envious of it, however most of the bands I've played with are collectively a step away from probation or parole violations and verbal or written supplications mean little to them..)

They call it an Axe for a Reason.

Some times you have to use it that way.

Only once in a while though, to get the respect you deserve and to give them the idea that's a game that they can lose...

They can either play it like the record, or trade, which ever one you've agreed apon..

Or they can get buried.

Try to do this at a smaller, less important gig so you don't have the embarrassment of a larger or more important venue.

Sheer volume won't get it either. You've got to cut through with class. That's why they call them "Chops".

You've got to be in tune too.

What's the best way to tune?

Hmm....

EJL

Happy Fourth of July all!

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 4 Jul 2004 1:16 pm

"Be Prepared"....the Boy Scouts of America didn't coin this from out of nowhere.

Next time this jerk does this to you, get up quietly, stroll back to either one of your two BIG SIZE amps, reach inside with care and withdraw from within, the largest possible set of Bolt Cutters money can buy and then head for his guitar/amp cord. If that fails to send the message, proceed toward the neck of his scrawny guitar.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 4 Jul 2004 1:32 pm

I play in a band with a bass player who gets louder, and plays more notes, as the night, and the whiskey, wears on. Rather than play in a situation with that kind of animosity, I'll just leave the band---simple enough, huh? No charts, no bolt cutters---NO AXES needed.
Tony, I enjoy those moments that you describe. I've seen Tony Rice fire J.D. Crowe's banjo licks right back at him, and both of them laughed at the musicality of it all.
Aren't convicted felons prohibited from going in bars??

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Jul 2004 1:42 pm

Gotta say that FINALLY, I'm working with a band that I actually LIKE. John Henry and his wife Bethany, with a MONSTER voice, with Artie Bechtel on tele, a fine tasty guitar player out of Oildell CA that I've worked on and off with for 6 years, and Mike Faes, a very smooth and rythmic drummer. We trade like we actually like doing it. Either through record arrangements, or swapping 4s at any time we want with audible cues.

Lord knows I've kissed enough frogs in the last couple years..

Actually Ray, I favor the Leatherman™..

Some of the bars here, Steve, you have to show a PO Card to get in.

Reminds me of the time I was playing with Ernie H______, a life long wannabe Portland Cop. I knew he always had his "service weapon" in his amp.

One night I asked him after the show if he had his "gun". He looked around and got it out of the amp and pulled out a wimpy looking glock 9mm.

Whereapon I fished in the inside pocket of my flight jacket while saying, " Well, Ernie, God forbid, but if I ever have to actually shoot someone, I feel I owe them the dignity of doing it with something that doesn't look like a Cap Gun..", and pulled out my favorite S&W 625 .45ACP revolver..

Of course he wanted to see my CWP, and since I was holding the bigger gun, I really didn't have to have one as far as I was concerned..

I didn't drill him even though it crossed my mind..... ( You'd have to know Ernie...)

EJL

Happy Fourth to all, Ray, Steve, Carl, et al.

We owe a lot to those young folks protecting us right now. Just like we always have. [This message was edited by Eric West on 04 July 2004 at 02:50 PM.]

Larry Moore · Post by **Larry Moore** » 4 Jul 2004 1:53 pm

Hey guys...... Don't get mad with the Lead Guitar Player for trying to play all those pretty steel licks. He really would like to learn to play Steel Guitar.
Why not just let him pick all he wants for a while? Then ask him if this, "Is this really what the song had on the turn around or do you know this tune?"
And if he keeps on why not try doing single note fills where the guitar player is suppose to be playing every time it his time to play. Just to see if he notices it ain't right.
Or like someone before said just pack up and say goodby.

I played with Fiddle player once (and he is a good one) he played on top of me every time this night. I just backed off and let him play, he would nod at me to take it on a how down I just shook my head and said no.
When the song was over he ask me why didn't take a break? I told him to just play until he got it out of his system. I think he finally got the message.

I also think the Steel Guitar is the most versital insturment....(without all of the effects a lot of Lead player use)

Larry

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 4 Jul 2004 2:03 pm

I was in a group once that opened for a semi-big name. The lead player also sang the first song..No problem..Then all of a sudden he disregards the set list and introduces one of his own compositions.We pretty much had to follow,not wanting to make a sceen. He was NOT the front man!
He simply took over and introduced one after another of his own songs,even introducing the rest of us as "His"band!
We went along with it to try and save face and the show.This fellow BTW,had played with this group for 10 years without any complaints(except for drinking a little too much one night)and who hasn't been there?
When we cofronted him backstage he said
That he was sorry but,this might be his only chance to impress a big name player..
Funny how people can be sometimes isn't it?
...Oh,...we also made sure that it WAS his only chance...at least with us!

------------------
Sho-Bud ProII,Nash 400,
TC Electronics M300.
"Kindly keep it Country"

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Jul 2004 2:07 pm

Thanks for your answer, Carl.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 July 2004 at 03:07 PM.]

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 4 Jul 2004 3:57 pm

Wayne and I have played twin steels many times and I can tell you he knows how to split an evening, as gooda asteel player I have ever doubled with. larry Bullock also is a gret one to double with. Also Randy Roe on his pedalmaster.
We have agreat lead player in Quitman sometimes we twin or play backup fills, that is fun we both do it. This is most fun on Ernest Tubbs songs.

Hi Wayne missed you Friday nite.

ernie

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 4 Jul 2004 5:19 pm

Hey Ernest, I missed last night as well. I was playing at Valdosta. I will probably not waste my time with those guys again. We do have a great thing going with the lead picker you are talking about. He was there last night. Well, I better go try to get my night flight in...

Ernest, glad to see you back on the Forum.

Wayne Baker
Handsomest Steel Player in Georgia

Lincoln Goertzen · Post by **Lincoln Goertzen** » 4 Jul 2004 6:40 pm

Yes, I think, too, that Mike P.'s suggestion was idealistic, but it is no less a good one.

However, there is a very easy way to overcome the problem at hand. Just have a frontman, and let him do the nods. This is a fantastic way of making all the solo parts separate. Everyone gets a chance to play, and everyone keeps from playing until they get 'the nod.'

Oh, yes, you definitely need band members that don't "have" to play all the time with this approach, too, but it's a good way to play in unrehearsed sets.

Lincoln Goertzen