Studio players versus"live" players

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 17 Apr 2004 9:52 am

I have noticed a lot of the "big" acts .. You know.. the multi millionaire pretty boys and girls with mediocre voices and great bodies peeking out sexily from under strategically placed Stetsons while they sing... Yeah them.. They very often have very good steel players with them long term.. year after year,tour after tour,but NEVER on albums.. Its always the best known studio players.Now of course these guys on the albums are in the upper echelon in ability,but I've always felt it was a bit of a slap in the face to the great players "humping it' on the road for 9-10 months at a clip. I dunno it just seems a little unfair,even though its been like that for quite a few years. It seems like an "artist" using the same players on the road and on the albums has gone the way of the DoDo and the Snail Darter... What do you think??? bob

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Apr 2004 9:59 am

Ditto, and a shame too.
So much great talent wasted.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 17 Apr 2004 11:36 am

that is true,but,steel player who is great for the live situation doesn`t have to be the best choice for the recording.Guys in the studio are top of the line players who are very versatile and they can provide what producer is asking from them,and that ,very quickly.Time is money,and while for the road player may take several takes (or hours) to finish the song,the studio cat will get through that song in no time.Studio is payed by the hour,so faster you lay down your tracks more money you save.Also,studio players are very inovative and the part of their job is also to come up with some great signature licks.Virtuosity + imagination + discipline = session player.Sure there is a ton of the session players who are good but don`t work master cuts.With such a low demand for the steel guitar in recording business these days one Paul Franklin himself is more than enough to cut all the "country" hits wich are coming out of the Nashville recording studios today.Friend of mine who is great player and worked on the road for some big names in business got fired many times from the sessions because he played all the time,all over the song as much and as fast as he could.Well,that is not how it works.Most of the time road players are asked to play note by note as on the record and if they can copy original licks they are good enough to go with the artist.Session players are in their class on it`s own.

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[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 17 April 2004 at 01:32 PM.]

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 17 Apr 2004 12:07 pm

I wonder who Robert Randolph uses in the studio?

Harold Jack Baker · Post by **Harold Jack Baker** » 17 Apr 2004 12:47 pm

I'm not sure but do road player really make as much money as studio musicians. Some road players have to borrow money to come home when they can't aford to do it anymore. The road is a gruelling task at best and time waits for no one. Very little time for living or enjoying anything but the music and humpin day after day gets kind of tiresome. Maybe I was not as good as some but the rest of the side men were in the same boat. Headliner got rich and the side men got squat.

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Texas Jack

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 17 Apr 2004 1:01 pm

I can't think of one top dog session player that wasn't at one time a road player,so the theory that road players can't cut it in the studio is b.s.,they just haven't been given the chance to prove themselves.What comes first the chicken or the egg?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Apr 2004 2:35 pm

It's not a question of a road player not cutting it..it's totally about the one who is called do to sessions that can create it and cut it..quickly, professionally and with the correct attitude.When that occurs the phone rings..regularly..I would guess attitude is 50%..

Sure many of the top session players have been on the road but that does not make every road player capable of being a top session player..not every great musician can get it done in the studio..this is not a fact I am inventing here...Your gear is different, your Instruments are different and your entire attitude about creating is different.The whole thing is different..

Now think of this..A player who is a career road player gets called to do several sessions , then gets called to do a road tour..now what ? Does he give up his road gig becasue he booked a few sessions ..and vice versa...Two totally different businesses..not to be confused with being the same 'cuz ya play the same Instrument.

I doubt there is animosity between the road and session guys that play for the fair haired acts..

side note that I shared with my pals on the Tele forum..

Back in the mid 80's I got asked to do a session on both Steel and Telecaster in NYC , at the 8th floor Studio on top of Radio City Music Hall. I did the Steel part, a short little gliss here and there..went fine. Then they asked me to pull out the Tele and add a few licks here and there, very simple nothing Brent Worthy..well about 4 bars in they stopped the tape and told me I was out of tune..So I tuned..again...then we started again, then they stopped the tape and told me I was out of intonation. Then the Engineer asks me gently.."Thats not your gig guitar is it?"..I said it's my only Tele..well I didn't finish the guitar parts.

I never claimed to be a session player anyway..but I did gig that night on the Tele' !

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 April 2004 at 11:24 AM.]

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 17 Apr 2004 3:17 pm

To get going in the music business you pretty much need to work the road with some name acts and build a rep. If you start getting session calls there may come a time, as mentioned above, when you have to decide if you can afford to quit the road.

Producers tend to use the same guys because they know they can get the job done quickly and efficiently. Why take a chance on a new untested guy? This might be a fine business model for the mass-production of vanilla top 40 music, but unfortunately you lose much of the individuality that existed when ET, Buck, Merle and RP used their own bands in the studio. Imagine how different "Waltz Across Texas" would have turned out if Pete Drake and Grady Martin had done the sesson instead of Buddy & Leon. Not necessarily better or worse, just real different.

And, BTW, there are a bunch of great steel players doing sessions that you'll never hear, because they're for Indie labels or Gospel labels that never make the playlists on the top 40 stations that play the same 20 songs over and over again.

But then, Paul was once a new untested guy, and he did OK. Maybe some of you can, too...

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Cal's Corral[This message was edited by Cal Sharp on 18 April 2004 at 12:04 AM.]

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 17 Apr 2004 7:44 pm

Playing in a studio setting, normally with headphones, is an entirely different "feel" than playing live. A guy thatis a studio musician primarily, and really understands studio playing is the guy you want. A studio player is quick to learn, used to playing songs he has never heard before, used to following charts, etc. He is very creative and has good taste to pick the right sound and come up with a new lick that just fits the song. If you use your own steel player, you are probably going to get what he has been playing on the road. If you use a studio guy, then with any luck, he will come up with something that really sells the song. That is why Paul Franklin is in such demand. He has a knack for coming up with just the right thing. Not only that, Paul will probably be the session leader and will have great ideas for the other musicians and the arrangement of the song. The producer usually decides who will play on the session, and he knows from experience, that as a general rule, go with somebody that does sessions everyday and is familar to the engineer as well as the other musicians rather than take a chance on a road picker that is not used to playing in a studio enviroment. Like somebody else said, time is money. You want somebody you know can get it done one or two takes. [This message was edited by George Kimery on 18 April 2004 at 02:37 PM.]

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 18 Apr 2004 8:20 am

Was this as prevelant in the olden days? Like Hank Thompson; Bob Wills; Hank Snow, Pee Wee King; Spade Cooley; Tex Williams; Smokey Rogers, Red Foley; Ernest Tubb, Ricky Skaggs; Loretta Lynn?

Or is this the NEW JIVE of todays'
R & R Producers? Just curious.........

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Apr 2004 9:44 am

Not from the sound of some of it, Ray - there was some great stuff back then, but a fair amount of sloppiness, too.

For better or worse, today's studio players are never sloppy - predictable sometimes, but very disciplined.

RR

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 18 Apr 2004 9:57 am

If anybody's ever heard Paul Franklin play live, they know this is a non-issue. He is quite simply a fantasic player who is well grounded in the all great styles of the past and has one foot firmly pointed toward the future. He does have the kind of studio experience and nerves of steel that enables him to not be intimidated by the kinds of producers and "engineers" that Tony spoke of.

I'm sure the whole Nashville star makin' machinery has always been driven by a "time is money" philosophy....Even in the days that Ray mentioned. Unfortunately that is probably never been more true than at the present time. IMO, what we hear on the radio these days has very little to do with true charachter verses commercial cleverness. Personally, I just can't keep my dial set to the current country stations for longer than a couple minutes before brain death sets in. I blame that on the "suits", not the players.

To hear you guys talking about the tough studio caste system in Nashville, I'm sure it must be a fearsome thing for even the most experienced live player to get his first big call. It must be like running the gauntlet...Southern style.

That's never been what makes the magic come out of my hands. Another reason why I just like to visit Music City every once in awhile.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 18 April 2004 at 11:00 AM.]

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 18 Apr 2004 1:45 pm

In the "Olden Days", I don't believe there was such a thing as a session player. The bands used their road players for recordings. Today the bottom line is "Time & Money."

Roger

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Apr 2004 2:32 pm

My point was one of more players more variety,
and if the producers can't dig that, they are myopic.

Nothing against Paul, Bruce, Lloyd etc. Love'm.
It's just a fact.

I would rather have a guy spend an hour more and ~NOT sound like the same old, new same old.

I thinik this is much of the reason Lloyd is back working again.
He has a fresh sound. For him and the studio sessions.

There are ghosts of the old Mr. Nashville sound in him still, but I hear fresh style in him now vs his old stuff.
And he sounds nothing like the other studio cats.

Gee. who else is out there under recorded,
to save $300 on a $6,000 session.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 18 Apr 2004 3:57 pm

First of all, I'm going to say that there are different calibers of musicians both on the road as well as the studio. Being dubbed one or the other doesn't necessarily imply any type of superiority in a musical sense (and yes, there are those who believe a "studio musician" is generally a more sophisticated and experienced player).

Having said that, I'm going to come at this from the perspective of someone who has spent quite a bit of money and time hiring musicians for sessions (in Nashville) ranging from masters to film/TV cues, and from jingles to demos...

When I was given the budget and the responsibility to deliver a certain product, I hired the players who I knew I could count on for certain performances and/or styles. Sometimes I wasn't under the gun time-wise and could experiment and spend more time looking for something unique, but generally, I was expected to just deliver a great sounding project with the time and money I had to work with. I've used "road players" and I've used "studio players" to get the job done. Most of the time, it wasn't always my job to reinvent the wheel, just deliver good, solid work. In those typical situations, I call upon the players for the same solid output, and based on knowing what they have done, I get it...time and time again. The difference in that and using players I wasn't as familier with (road or studio players)is that I could've spent too much time learning how to get a certain performance from someone capable but not as experienced with following the trend or flow(and yes...time unfortunately does equal money, it's unavoidable).

It's a food chain so to speak. Paul as said many times and many ways that he is working for the producer and whatever they want. The producer is doing the same thing but only answering a little higher on the chain. That chain doesn't stop with the suits though. For example, if a new artist doesn't sell, the public won't buy product and ultimately that is who is dictates the future of that artist.

But back to the original post itself. Playing live and playing in the studio are two different dynamics. All the studio cats I'm familier with all did the road at one time or another in their lives. Paul was certainly at the top of his studio career when he went on the road with the Dire Straits and I don't believe I ever heard anyone suggest his caliber of playing had changed in the least (kinda the opposite really).

I know categories are something we all use in life and this is no different. But even within the two categories of "road musicians" verses "studio musicians", I doubt that no one thinks that all the players in either are of equal caliber. For example, does every studio player play to the level of Paul or Sonny or Tommy? Doesn't mean they can't make a career out of it though. Same thing with "road musicians"...not all created equal. But, as "musicians", our biggest limitation is ourselves and perhaps how we allow others to perceive us.

Bottom line...good is good, great is great, regardless of where life has you.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Apr 2004 4:06 pm

If todays methods in Nashville for producing music are so "far superior" to the old days of the road bands doing session work--like E.T., Loretta, Bob Wills, Hank Thompson, ect, then Why do I love the OLD MUSIC so much more than the new stuff comeing out of the Nashville Star Machinery??? Is it just me?? Wil Rodgers said:"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Why'd they have to "fix it"? To me, it's like them putting a brand new suit on a monkey, and they hope no one notices it's still a monkey! They use some of the finest pickers on the planet, seems like they could get some decent material to let them play on. Seems like they are ashamed to let a little real country music leak out once in a while. OK, I'll get back in my cage again and shutup!! HA!!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 Apr 2004 5:39 pm

J M.... amen brother!

Jim Florence · Post by **Jim Florence** » 19 Apr 2004 9:27 am

One of the greatest stories I know of is what Buddy Emmons wrote on this forum some years ago about a lesson he learned one time recording with E.T. doing "Half a mind", when after he had played all over the neck, E.T. leaned over him and asked quietly "Can you get a little closer to the melody?".
He said it was a great lesson in trying to get into what the artist had in mind.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 19 Apr 2004 12:14 pm

Question... With today's technology you can darn near synthesize a tune from a stone (of course it will sound synthetic, but you get my drift). In the olden days (i.e. Ray Price, Buck Owens, etc.) didn't the musicians all play at the same time and the tape machine record all the tracks at the same session. Was anyone brave enough to record directly to the wax master for the vinyl pressing?

(BTW: today's pop music is so synthetic it's almost counterfeit. They had the Britney Spears concert on Showtime last night and it bordered on soft pornography.)

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 19 Apr 2004 3:32 pm

I was an intern in the a&r dept. for one of the big record companies in town, and I saw first hand how the majors decide who's gonna play on the next hit. In my experience, I saw the A&R guy work in fear of not making his boss mad by making a bad choice(on anything-food, players, golf dates....) So he'd call the most popular player first, and if he wasn't available, number 2.
This guy had a few demos of up and coming players on his cd rack that he told me were "too green" to do masters, when I personally knew one, and he's a great drummer. Lots of experience, just not in the Nashville master session scene. I did meet Paul Franklin during my internship, though I doubt he remembers, and for someone so successful at his instrument, he was a very nice guy.

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 19 Apr 2004 8:54 pm

At the end of my gigs I get paid. When the money is put in my hand, I think, "Wow all this fun and we get paid too! .............

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 Apr 2004 12:32 am

If you have a artist on the road with the same band, and they are working up new original songs, and it is like a family.

This is something you can recreate with a put together band, you can get close, but those little interactions between players speak volumes.

Then you have people who play as a unit and interact well together. I see no reason to have the artist suddenly dump the band for the studio technicians for the next album.

Again nothing against the studio greats.
In many cases these guys play togehther so much they are almost like a band anyway.
But also most of the time they are the SAME BAND, for all cuts. Not so much new blood.

I think Paul might agree, he likes to play with new people, because he gets new interaction and feedback from them and expands his playing that way.

Two cases in point. Allison Krauss, and Nashville Bluegrass Band...
These bands will play most anyone under the table as bands. And with great emotion and creative interaction.
Seen both acts several times live, and heard the studio takes ad infinitum.

Sure add a few great sidemen too. Who doesn't want Jerry and Stuart on a session. And Alison does do both Session Cat albums and ones with Union Station. Either way equally great.

I also add Dolly, she had some great new albums, but her last she used her roadband. It sounds killer too.

These are also bands that can do it live right.

The point, is these bands are just that: BANDS, and they play off each other with a HUGE HEART. There is NO replacement for this, no matter how efficient or how hot the chops of a studio band.

If you get Brent and Paul together, you can get that also much of the time, but they aren't the only ones out there. But they also play in a band together.

I am just saying that a well integrated act shouldn't be broken up at studio time, because some A & R guy is paranoid about his boses reaction.

This is one of the MAIN reasons for the homoginization of country music lately.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 20 Apr 2004 4:04 am

Bob, You have made some good points. I traveled with a gospel group for some time and Sonny Garrish played on their projects. I could copy 95% of what he played even though he is a much better player than I. Sonny is a great studio player and I would have never thought of the licks he played on the songs. I am not a good studio player since I have tried a few times. I have never been able to think or obtain a sound I want in the studio. You realize I have never been in a Nashville studio but I have also heard some steel playing come from studios in Nashville that did not sound good to my ears. Some guys are just better in the studio than they are in live sittings. Then there are some like the Emmons, Franklins, Garrish and so on who are great in both scenarios.

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 20 Apr 2004 5:52 am

It's the CN3M (Corporate Nashville Music Manufacturing Machine) mentality. I say let an artist with his well rehearsed band come in the studio and record it the way it is. It's worked fairly well for Brad Paisley. The music coming out of Nashville sounds too sterile to me, too perfect.

JMHO

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 20 Apr 2004 7:08 am

I would like to add a third player--the Weekend Warrior. I'm not going to discuss the caliber of the player--degree of ability and talent differ everywhere. Most weekend players have a day job but when the weekend comes they are off and running. Most club bands do cover which means for a four-hour gig numerous songs have to be learned and remembered--not just 10 or 15 to be performed for a one hour concert. Club owners expect the band to come as close as possible to the real thing. It's hard work but it is fun. Joe