Are any of you newbies.....you know

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 9 Jan 2004 9:51 am

A recent post referred to memorization and somewhere in that arena, a comment or two was made about memorizing which pedals to push where, and when, in any given song.
I trust none of you are attempting to play
out in a band while attempting to recall which pedal or lever to push or shove aside, as opposed to learning the melody of a song and then "knowing" which pedals to operate in order to get the "thingie" the way you want to hear it.
In other words: There are some folks that have NEVER taken the time to understand or master the skillfull operation of an automobile in traffic. THey purchase the very best, most expensive, most well equipped but have taken the easy way out, and NEVER learned how to properly DRIVE that thing on the crowded streets of AmericaLand.
People are "losing control" of vehicles every day and others are dying because of it.
Guns are going off "accidentally" and/or "mysteriously".....and folks are dying because of it.
My point: MEMORIZING which pedal to push or shove in this song at this point, is NOT ENOUGH. You must take the diffult and necessary time to delve into WHY a pedal is being stomped or shoved here or there. Tabs should be showing you these very reasons, as opposed to using tabs merely to play the song. That's just the humble opinion of an aged, decrepid old man, hoping to be of some small help to some of you low-time but enthusiastic beginners. We were all there once upon a time.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Jan 2004 4:58 pm

Hi Ray, I think I know what you mean there. I believe you must achieve a point in your playing where you don't need to think of what when where and why because your moves become so automatic you don't think about it----there just isn't time--the moment will pass too quickly. I have found that out to be true playing out. I believe the only way to break through that plateau is to play out live somewhere---maybe just live practice--where you know you can't back up a cd and try a second time. The more you do, the better at it you become. It really turns into "feel", that's what I'm after. I apologize if I missed your point, but that's what I got out of your post.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 9 Jan 2004 8:28 pm

I haven't been playing steel very long, well off and on for 18 years, but mostly off. I have played guitar for over 28 years solid and I know what Ray is saying. Memorization is nowhere in my book, but to break that barrier and become really proficient at improvising, you've got to understand how music works, specifically chord progressions and chord structure. Practice and get out there on the limb, like Ray says, but don't forget to learn some theory along the way. If it weren't for my musical knowledge, I wouldn't be able to play at all.

jd

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 9 Jan 2004 9:36 pm

JOe and James you made my point much clearer.
THANK YOU........

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Jan 2004 11:26 pm

Well, your points were well taken to be sure.

I might humbly suggest that at a certain point, being able to "memorize" things indeed does become easier. It has not in either of "our cases" been "skipped".

From the start, the Old School Taskmaster that I was lucky enough to study with showed me that the hardest thing a person can do is hear four or five notes and play them back without "making something up". DAMN it was HARD. Then, over the course of a couple years, I got to the point where I could easily remember a whole arrangement. After 25 years I know that I can 'almost' trust my ears. I can play Buds Bounce exactly the way he taught it to me. Even "Harbor Lights", note for note.

This instrument is unlike any other.

It can be played any of a dozen different ways. It can be looked at a dozen different ways, and a person can be "Successful" a dozen different ways.

I remember (

) what you said in your post

When I started, you memorized every steel song, note for note just like the recording artists did it.

Now I realise Ray, that when you started there were not that many notes that had been played to memorize...

. ( funnin ya here..)

But it has to occur to you that it is the same for "The way things are now" for us guys that are just starting out.

Now, since you are addressing us "newer players" I might add that your particular "playing what you feel" is the result of long years of practice, and the initial memorization of "Standards", ways to get from one position to another, not to mention 'certain ways to stomp a pedal' not to mention "certain ways to slant a bar" or particular ways to "slam a bar" or "use the volume pedal".

It would be nice if they/we could "skip it", and indeed it is such that many have and can get away with just "wingin' it".

That's not the way either you nor I started.

I'm still having, if I want to work, to play perfectly memorized "screaming pedal stomps" or "Piercing Machine Gun Note Run". It's not my fault that I want to. I'm broke. Even to me it doesn't sound the way I'd like it, but it seems to make the people I work for continue paying me.

In periods of being more picky I play with bands like Doug Jones' or Harley's, that play more "Standards". I keep the jobs too as long as I am able to remember what to play correctly.

The only thing I've EVER been fired for is "attitude" ( Fancy That.

.)

Ever play "Elvira"? "Honky Tonk Women"? " Swingin'"?

If left to my self, I'd sit home like I have been and play along with Bobbe Seymores CDs. I LOVE IT.

Actually since I AM working, I've memorized the head and chord progression to Midnite in Amarillo off the Emmons Rugg tape, I let my Mind Wander as well as Half a Mind (off the Seymore CD), to play it them with the New band I'm playing with the last week in January at Jubitz with. That's besides the chord to the 60 songs they threw at me three weeks ago to "have ready". Some of them I'd forgotten the intros to, and I don't want to either look stupid or get fired. I can't afford to.

The PFranklin Speed Picking Excersizes I learned this summer made it possible for me to work on jobs where I was required to do the "Machine Gun garbage". I made their price back the first week I had them.

Since I WORK my memory, I know I CAN do it.

I remember PF saying that he "memorizes" what form of an instrumental break he plays with certain songs on certain shows. Mr Charleton assured me at one time that almost "everything he played" was memorized. I'm sure Mr E memorizes things.

I would, like MANY other Young Pup Players, (less than a quarter million bucks earned, and only 24 years onstage in only a hundred fifty or so bar bands) like to be able to fall back on a Long Professional Career, to keep from having to memorize things to GET JOBS, but alas, I haven't got Fifty Years in.

When I do, well you'll be around a hundred, so I'll have to call you and probably talk a little louder to let you know how it's gone

.

Now if you will excuse me, I've got some things to memorize for next week's gig, and the five niter at the end of the month.

Just Remember, I for one, can't do the things that you do without having to at least some of the things you have done..

Hopefully I'll pick the right things to do..

EJL

Eric Do you get paid by the word? -bob-

Actually b0b, I found an eccentric group of canadian polar explorers with satelite up links to pony up $.02 Canadian for every word. Mis spelled or not. Looks like We're RICH.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 09 January 2004 at 11:42 PM.]

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 10 Jan 2004 9:31 am

Another fine piece of literature from Eric!! I do enjoy your comments!! If you would let b0b make a 200 page book using your posts(per month), and split it with the forum 50/50, you could retire, Eric!!! b0b, maybe you could put up a collum and title it "Eric Sez", kinda like Andy Rooney on 20/20, or was it 60 minutes? Keep up the fine comments!!

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 10 Jan 2004 9:33 am

THANK YOU Eric, thank you very much indeed. Your contributions are always welcome and this one is much appreciated, along with your unique insite into the complexities of the human mind as they relate to the steel guitar.

Now, moving right along, I was merely directing my comments and those of others, I'd hoped, toward the BRAND NEW steel guitar students (one-two year or less). There's been a lot of questions that go something like this: "I've been playing pedal steel now for 3-4 weeks, and I'm having difficulty getting into a working band, any suggestions?"; or, "What songs do they play in a band?"; or, "how do you tune a steel guitar?" or "what pedals to you use on Danny Boy?, or whatever. To me, this indicates someone still in an early stage of learning how to play this machine.
I was attempting to provide a yard stick for these newer students (Not someone that has worked for 24 years in prof.bands with big name stars and made hundreds of thousands of dollars playing steel guitar) so that they might better be able to recognize for themselves WHEN THEY are TRULY READY to climb up in front of an audience and play their machine. We've all heard folks that were playing with friends in a club or somewhere that were no more ready to be there than to operate a technical piece of machinery. Out of tune, crooked bar placement, wrong pedals, inaccurate adjustments, out of meter, etc.
So, once again, to you folks just starting out, don't get in to too big a rush or expect too much from your limited knowledge base..... Formulate a plan; work on that plan toward your goal; don't get too many opinions from too many different people; try to find ONE solid instructor, practice, and practice, then start playing with some records while recording yourself and then sit back and listen to what you've done in order to determine how well you're progressing. Steel guitar playing is not the easist of tasks but it IS highly rewarding to those who don't give up.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Jan 2004 2:21 pm

Oh. In that case..

Nevermind..

EJL

Wayne Morgan · Post by **Wayne Morgan** » 11 Jan 2004 12:19 pm

Hi Ray, always love to read your thoughts, I am a newby,,played about two years and having the time of my life with the old Sho~Bud, and guys like you have made my time with the steel more pleasent,,I played music most of my life and the steel is the most challenging and enjoyable. Little tips from people like you , I appreciate very much.
This Forum is a treasure and all the people that participate in it.

Wayne

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 13 Jan 2004 7:19 pm

Hello everyone, I'm a newbie from St. Louis. Been playin guitar for 43 years, steel for 2 months. i feel like I know all of you just from reading old posts! In regards to this discussion, i have 8 or 9 songs that I play along with over and over(Steel), the coordination is coming. The general musical theory is already there, but memory is only for the co-ordination of eye and hand and foot. On 6 string, I rarely if ever "memorize", and seldom play anything anymore note for note, it is a blessing! Thanks for allowing me into this great forum!! (This is my 1st post)

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 14 Jan 2004 2:47 pm

Hi Jim,
That's exactly what I do too, but I guess there are times, as Eric so elequently put it, when we do need to memorize (copy) someone else's style or licks or the song just doesn't come off right. One example might be the intro to Johnny B. Goode on six string.

Joe

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jan 2004 12:09 am

hey ray, i've been playing about a year now and i have been playing and adding things to songs since day one on the steel. i haven't had a choice because i was playing in a band when i got the steel, and as soon as everyone heard it, they wanted me to play along. i guess it has come to me pretty easy, and i already knew how to pick from playing banjo for six years, so the right hand stuff (grips mainly) took me about a month to get (chords), and i just worked over and over until the changes became easy and fluid. playing steel guitar, or doing something related to steel guitar is almost all i do outside of being a prep cook in a kids outdoor environmental education facility for 40 hours a week. i went to college, got a degree, and gave up the good job to pursue my dream of playing music for my livelyhood, because that is the most satisfying thing to me. my friends who i am still playing in a band with, all think i am crazy because of how much i practice and am into the pedal steel, but i don't care, i love it, it is pretty much all i think about all day long, everyday, but, let me also tell you. they think i am even crazier for not putting an ad out looking for gigs. i know i am not the best steeler, and i'm not going to go out and look for gigs until i know more, but i will also say this. when the heat is on, and the song is going, things come quicker than if i am in my room playing to a cd. something about the energy of the moment and being onstage that is the extra thing needed to play best, of course, i could always mess up, but most of the time it sounds appropriate. so what i am saying, is that i have almost been forced to play steel, onstage in front of people, from about the one month mark. literally, the day i got my steel, i was renting one at the time, my buddies had me running thru songs, pushing me and telling me the best way to learn was to play with people. it helped me, but so does practice, and i practice more than anyone i know. if i could do it over again, i would have had my dad get me a steel guitar when i was 6 and sit me down and help me, or get me a good teacher, but my parents wanted me to play piano, which at the time was the last instrument i wanted to play, now i wish i had because of all the advantages you have in understanding theory and melody structure. i try to be as tasteful and simple as i can and to play within my means, and have as much fun as i can. you gotta get your feet wet sometime, the ideal time is after years of intense study and chop development, but for some of us, that isn't the case. i have the utmost respect for the guys who were lucky enough to get into steel when they were really young, and got good by their teens, i envy them so much, but at least this way, i can play in a band, embellish some songs while i learn, and hopefully i'll be better off for doing it this way.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 15 Jan 2004 12:11 am

oh, and i don't memorize. i play by my ear and feel what is necessary.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 15 Jan 2004 1:27 am

I know it might sound like a kind of "retraction" but most of the stuff I play from "memory" I don't remember memorizing....

EJL

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 15 Jan 2004 2:50 pm

When you can play it without really thinkin' about it for a while, up to the point where you get totally lost 'cause it got away from you, then it's kinda fun.

David Holden · Post by **David Holden** » 19 Jan 2004 8:23 pm

Well...the only comment that I can add was the time I was playing a real hot 8 measure break. I thought to myself "What did I just do? That sounded real cool"

Big Mistake...A few minutes later my opportunity came around to do it again. This time I was trying to analyze what I was doing and it fell apart on me.

MORALE OF THE STORY: When you're up there on the bandstand, you need to get to the point where you visualize what you want to do and let your practice and instinct take you there. Have fun and stay in the groove of the song.

Just my 2 cents...!!!

Gary Ulinskas · Post by **Gary Ulinskas** » 20 Jan 2004 6:52 am

One reason I took up pedal steel 30 years after I last touched my non pedal Fender 8 string, was that I have heard medical authorities say that one way to keep the brain from going bad is to exercize it vigorously. One of those ways is to take up a musical instrument. I am 63, and my mom, who is 84, has zero short-term memory. During my last several years of working as a rocket test engineer, I had some frightening experiences with memory lapses and thought I was comming down with Alzhiemer's or dementia. It's one reason I decided to take early retirement - I didn't want to get anybody killed.
I practiced scales and exercizes in my new steel for several months before I tried my first song, "Faded Love" from Jeff Newman's
JUST JAMMIN tab book. After nearly a month of practicing I could not get thru that song without making a mistake or going mentally blank in the middle of it. It was real discouraging. Then Ray Montee put in a post on this forum about VISUALIZATION which I interpreted as playing the song in your mind and mentally moving the levers and pressing the pedals. After doing that, I played thru the song for the 1st time without a major messup and was elated. My wife, who was downstairs preparing dinner actually applauded!
Was that memorizing? I now have about 10 songs I can play that way, and it seems to be taking less and less time to learn each new song. When I now play some of the 1st songs I learned, it's as though my knees and left foot are on automatic pilot. Is that because of memory, or that because when I am playing a note on the 3rd fret in a C chord my mind just knows it's time to use the A & B pedals? Whatever it is, I'll take it.

------------------
Gary Ulinskas
MSA S-12 + Walker mono

Gary Ulinskas · Post by **Gary Ulinskas** » 20 Jan 2004 6:57 am

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG HERE? THIS IS THE 2ND TIME I HAVE ENTERED A REPLY TO A POST BY HITTING THE "SUBMIT" BOX ONCE, AND IT SHOWS UP TWICE.
MODERATOR, PLEASE REMOVE THIS.
THANKS.
One reason I took up pedal steel 30 years after I last touched my non pedal Fender 8 string, was that I have heard medical authorities say that one way to keep the brain from going bad is to exercize it vigorously. One of those ways is to take up a musical instrument. I am 63, and my mom, who is 84, has zero short-term memory. During my last several years of working as a rocket test engineer, I had some frightening experiences with memory lapses and thought I was comming down with Alzhiemer's or dementia. It's one reason I decided to take early retirement - I didn't want to get anybody killed.
I practiced scales and exercizes in my new steel for several months before I tried my first song, "Faded Love" from Jeff Newman's
JUST JAMMIN tab book. After nearly a month of practicing I could not get thru that song without making a mistake or going mentally blank in the middle of it. It was real discouraging. Then Ray Montee put in a post on this forum about VISUALIZATION which I interpreted as playing the song in your mind and mentally moving the levers and pressing the pedals. After doing that, I played thru the song for the 1st time without a major messup and was elated. My wife, who was downstairs preparing dinner actually applauded!
Was that memorizing? I now have about 10 songs I can play that way, and it seems to be taking less and less time to learn each new song. When I now play some of the 1st songs I learned, it's as though my knees and left foot are on automatic pilot. Is that because of memory, or that because when I am playing a note on the 3rd fret in a C chord my mind just knows it's time to use the A & B pedals? Whatever it is, I'll take it.

------------------
Gary Ulinskas
MSA S-12 + Walker mono

[This message was edited by Gary Ulinskas on 20 January 2004 at 07:08 AM.][This message was edited by Gary Ulinskas on 20 January 2004 at 07:09 AM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Jan 2004 2:36 pm

Too much analyzing is paralyzing, and memorization without organization is a formula for limited success.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 20 Jan 2004 8:02 pm

memorization without organization is a formula for limited success. Reece now I realize my problem

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 22 Jan 2004 3:00 pm

Hi Ray.....as you well know, I am in similar shoes to Chris - still a struggling student of the instrument but am gradually adding more steel into the band mix (sometimes a little out of tune, with crooked bar, or wrong pedals). I find I learn different things when I take the guitar out on gigs (where I still primarily play piano). Firstly just the act of setting it up and getting it in tune in a hurry is important....that gets better with practice like everything else. To play along with recordings in your home is ideal but I like to test my learning in a realtime situation. Unlike driving a car, noone will get hurt by a sudden mistake. To play in front of a crowd while slightly nervous, getting distracted by drunks, at a faster tempo than I practised (since the drummer sped up the tune), with other band instruments out of tune, working around a broken string, or playing without a volume pedal which I forgot at home all help me improve. I think for me, these experiences are all helping me build some skill in areas I could not have anticipated in the warmth of my living room. Hey I even have one recording session under my belt which also taught me some useful lessons. At the moment I just try not to take many solos or play too much unless the crowd is really drunk and friendly.

I would give anything to have an old hand like you living down the street to answer my dumb questions but luckily there this forum (and Neil Flanz on the other side of Cuba). Joe Wright characterizes a many playing moves as happening on the level of 'muscle memory' which makes a lot of sense from my piano playing experience. If I think too much about the riff in Chick Corea's "Spain" while playing everything falls apart....my fingers 'memorized' it and seem to know what to do - I just sit back and enjoy watching them sometimes. In short, I have no right to take this thing out of the living room yet after barely two years but most of the audience appear to appreciate my fledgling efforts anyway....I can only hope there aren't any real steel players in the audience for a while yet. [This message was edited by William Steward on 22 January 2004 at 03:03 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Jan 2004 3:27 pm

Reece, now I realize my problem.. -Jody Carver-

Sooo.. then... are you going to share this information?

Mr Steward:

Being a painist (sp), you should know the principal of "The Muse". You'll find one. They're all over.

Mine is unique.

Leave some heavily sugared coffee and cigarettes sitting out around your guitar. You'll have you own personal one before you know it.

You'll be Famous if you want, for one thing or another.

Huh Jody?

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 January 2004 at 03:35 PM.]

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 22 Jan 2004 4:47 pm

Mr. West....did you think it necessary to push poor old Velda out of the cab for the sake of your day job? My muses speak to me at the weirdest times as well but don't have a persona yet...the lingering smell of cheap perfume is common to our experiences though. Keep on truckin'....you are a kindred soul to our Ray although just express it differently...

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 22 Jan 2004 5:55 pm

You'll be Famous if you want, for one thing or another. Yes Eric,,I could have been famous,,I wanted to be a sex maniac,but I couldnt pass the physical.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Jan 2004 6:40 pm

Well Mr S, about the time that Jimmy Patton, a local idol and dear friend of mine went downhill, having a quintuple bypass, playing in the worst of the worst clubs. He finally ended up getting his torso ripped half off by a drunk driver during his "comeback",and getting unplugged by Lou, his guitar player.

Shortly after that I met Roger Miller at the fence of one of his tours through the PI Stockyards bldg. He didn't look real good, and we traded niceties without mentioning music. He struck me after all those years as a quiet, gentle man. He did "Old Friends" and it made me cry. Soon afterward he died of cancer.

One evening after a "big time" gig like many others at the local truck stop, on the way to a day job which required me to be in a 50,000lb dump truck under a road mix asphalt plant at 6am, my muse suggested that I forget about it, and sleep in like the rest of the "musicians". I shoved her out, thinking full well I'd killed her..

She showed up looking even more fetching at the gig that next night, doing her job, but not following me home..

I soon realized that it was She that was the "slave" and I the master. Understand that I've NEVER said or believed that I have "paid my dues". In the same breath, I owe the Muse, nothing. It's the other way around for ALL of us.

Too bad too few of them realise it before they piss away their lives.. ( can I say that..?)

Jody. I was trying to find Nymphonon™,and just hang aound the meetings waiting for "slippage"... but about that time I realised that like everything else.. "If you want something done right...."

Practice makes perfect. It is all in the hands.

Imagination is better than memorization.

Just ask my wife.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 January 2004 at 06:53 PM.]