The Steel Guitar Forum

Happy new year folks!

I've noticed that I can get a wider, more lyrical, "sadder" vibrato by sliding the bar back & forth rather than rolling it.

Is this a bad habit?

-GV

Both techniques are valid, and have a different sound. They are different arrows in your quiver.

Some great players only use one, but I'm a believer that you should be comfortable with both.

I've heard the pros and cons of this question, but to tell you the truth I've never been able to detect a difference because either way, the bar is just being moved from one position to another! ...but, I may not be as discriminating in such matters as some, and I could certainly be wrong!
www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 05 January 2004 at 11:29 AM.]</p></FONT>

If it's easy to do, it's probably a bad habit.



EJL

Well... the sliding method is certainly NOISIER than the rolling method, but I've just been getting a sweeter sound out of the sliding method over the past week or so that I've been experimenting with it.

Thanks for the replies. Any other thoughts out there?

-GV

I think for slow stuff I tend to roll the bar but for fast stuff (especially on an acoustic) I tend to slide the bar. It's pretty unconscious, though.

I wish I could do the nice wide "old-timey" kind of vibrato of Andy Iona or Joaquin Murphy in that "Columbus Stockade" clip but I just can't do it. Instead, on slow songs I usually shoot for a kind of slow spacey Bill Frisell type of vibrato and for fast songs I've got a pretty generic (although fairly narrow) vibrato.

I like trying to copy other people's vibrato, and sometimes it takes rolling and sometimes sliding. I don't think there's really a "bad habit" in vibrato except perhaps "fishtailing" the bar--leading the bar movement with the bottom of the bar, rather than keeping the bar perfectly straight as you move it back and forth (even if you vibrato in a circle, the bar should still be kept pointing straight as you move it). Obviously, the wider your chord grip, the more this will matter--and you may even want the uneven, out of tune sound it provides once in a while--but it should probably be avoided most of the time.

-Travis

Ahhh, like a shark to chum ... my favorite subject.

No matter what musical "era" or "genre"... all the great vibrato-ists have/had one thing in common ...

A whole number of oscillations per vibrato cycle ... most will speed up the vibrato toward the end of the cycle to accomplish this ...

Easy to say ... hard to do !!!

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<font size=1>www.horseshoemagnets.com </font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 05 January 2004 at 02:56 PM.]</p></FONT>

Nice topic. Being new to PSG, I don't have much of an opinion, other than I agree that there is probably validity to either method and I'm sure there are great players on both sides of that fence.


Bob P.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Robert Porri on 05 January 2004 at 02:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

I agree that the sliding method is a little noisier, especially on would strings. The rolling type, though, is harder to do really fast.

So I do both! (Roll on the slow vibrato, and slide on the fast).

I'm a slow Roller.
Jerry

Me too... roll slow.. slide fast.. It's funny,, when I use a slide vibrato on slow stuff I really can't hear much differance... The reason I slide it when I'm playing fast is kind of unknown,,,, it just seemd to work out that way bob

I say as long as your bar is straight you're fine.

I do what JB recommends and act like I'm using an pencil eraser, but I do think rolling works great on slow sustains.

Rick, could you go into the whole number thing a bit more please. Thanks...

I hold the bar steady and shake the guitar underneath it. I learned that from Jody Carver. The hardest part is keeping your face straight. As far as "whole numbers" go, well, let's just say I gave that up years ago... <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 05 January 2004 at 09:35 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jesse, here is an example of what I mean ...

Say you reach the end of a phrase on an A note.

One typical "vibrato wave" would begin dead center on the A note ... then move to say ... (+)30 cents (sharp of A) .... then back "through" A to (-)30 cents (flat of A) ... then back to A (dead center).

Start dead center ... go sharp ... go flat ... back to dead center = 1 wave (oscillation).

No matter what rate (generally 4-6 Hz) or extent (ususally 20-100+ cents) ... an accomplished player/singer will incorporate a whole number of waves (1,2,3,4,5,6 ...etc.) into the sustained note's vibrato.

Depending on the tempo of a song ... the artist will generally use his/her "natural vibrato frequency" ... and then speed up that rate to complete a whole number of waves ... as needed.

Of course, this is natural to the great players/singers and they certainly don't really think about it ... its more of a "feel" ... a "complete-ness" ...

See what happens when you give an obsessive personality a spectrum analyzer.

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<font size=1>www.horseshoemagnets.com </font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 06 January 2004 at 04:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

In my mind, a steel's vibrato should mimic that of a good singer.

Isn't a vocal vibrato accomplished by dipping below the note momentarily and then back up to the note in repetition? Are they really bending the note SHARP as well???

If you think of a typical sine curve (graph) ... the note being "vibrato-ed" has a y coordinate equal to zero ...

The "maxima" is the most positive y value.

The "minima" is the most negative y value.

The extent of the vibrato is sum of the maxima and minima (absolute values).

The smoothest, most pleasing vibratos have maximas and minimas that are equal ..

Ex) Max = +20 cents ; Min = -20 cents therefore the extent is 40 cents.

The ear/brain will detect the "dead center" of the pattern as the "note" being played ... therefore a vibrato as you described will sound flat.

It takes years to develop a "classical" vibrato ... I'm still tryin'

I think some violin lessons may help here:

Greg: Yes, the vibrato goes sharp first then flat then back to pitch, one of Rick's waves. This wave can be wide, narrow, fast, slow in any combination. Violinists learn to use all of them. Whatever sounds best. Usually low notes are wide and slow and high notes are narrow and fast. As always with exceptions.

Rick: I think you are right regarding using a whole number of waves. If one went to the next note without ending the vibrato on pitch (center) it would de-center the sound and the impression of the note would be that the player was sharp, flat or incompetent. The exercises to learn this are painfully slow and tedious. Try counting a SLOW 4. Center on one, high on 2, center on three, and low on 4 center on 1 etc. and smooth all the way. Ugh.
Altough a violinist has a "default" vibrato it is chosen as a matter of personal style. We attempt to hit the proper vibrato right away and not modify to fill the space correctly. The width and speed may be modified within a note for effect but if it is modified just to fit the space the player goofed.
Thanks for the thinking material.
Steve Bailey

Rick: we were thinking at the same time.
Dead on.

Steve Bailey<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Recluse on 06 January 2004 at 09:28 AM.]</p></FONT>

Here is an excellent paper on the Rhythmic Aspects of Vibrato.

I first saw this paper searching through the "stacks" at the Univ. of Miami library (waitin' on the wife to get out of class) ... now its just a click away.

Ain't the internet somethin' ..

Thanks Rick, that was interesting.

To comment on Greg's post about a singer's vibrato. (Actually, don't horn players usually use a singing type vibrato in terms of lowering pitch and back to center only also?) I think he's right about a singing vibrato going down and back to pitch. But, a typical guitar fingered vibrato for example, goes UP and back to pitch (and repeats over and over of course).

Point being, I would not think that a PSG vibrato should imitate a singing vibrato in it's pitch variance anymore than it should imitate a guitar. I think it's a unique thing.

Bob P.

As well, much of the "early" vibrato, I have heard was done to cover some of the tuning fluctiations on early record. ( Ethyl Murman, Kitty Wells eg )

In PSG, it serves a similar function with intonation 'glitches'.

Not to wake up old "ET" again, but unless there's some part of it that I don't understand, those people that screw around with their tunings and unwilling to accept "beats" are going to be fine until they come up to the point where it bites them in the ass, an they're 20 cents out in a "gap point". As it is. being a "straight up" tuner, I find that I make bar adjustments, AND vibrato certain voicings, and at "ending" or "pause" times where there's NO WAY to match a tele that's playing a similar note or chord "Live" and come out sounding good.

Also when they arrive at whatever "chord point" that begins a third or fifth voicing, they then are obliged to deviate from a fixed fret point to avoid Beatitis. At that point, I'd think "vibrato" would be helpful by providing "false beats".

I envy those that can play "Beat free", but I just don't seem to hear them play in tune with properly tuned pianos, or guitars.

Thankfully I didn't hear about this Beatlessness™ until I'd been playing 23 years, and I've never been too distracted by it's mathematical impossibilities.

In stead of arguing with The Beatless, I'd like to opine that those of us that are not sometimes use it so we aren't caught Beating.... well, you know

On "Sliding" I'd like to further opine that it's harder on strings. I Myself as it is, find that I wear "grooves" on my "main frets" after not changing my strings if I keep them on for more than two weeks, which I seldom do anymore. Rolling minimizes this, and leaves "sliding" the long runs between positions as the only "wearing" and more uniform.

Dr Hankey, you're needed in "Beatology". Stat.



EJL

Bob and Greg ... here is a great site dedicated to singers and the use of spectral analysis.

VoceVista.

If you scroll down on this particular page you will see spectrograms of P. Domingo, and L. Pavarotti.

Regardless if it is a violin, flute, steel guitar, tenor or theramin ... the acoustical properties of vibrato are fairly consistant. Not only with the basics (rate/extent/onset) ... but with the more complex issues like harmonic involvement through-out the cycle, dB changes associated with rapid changes in pitch (fundamental and overtones), etc.

Something that has not been mentioned yet and is one of the primary reasons for the use of vibrato ... is Auditory Attention Deficit Disorder (AADD). <font size=1>I made that up</font>

The brain has a very short "attention span" and grows weary of a stagnant note fast. The vibrato gives the sustained note needed variation to keep the brain interested.

For that matter, the brain will soon loose interest in a machine-like vibrato (consistant rate and extent). That is why master musicians employ a variety of rates and extents in a single piece ...

Got to keep the audience on the edge of their seats





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<font size=1>www.horseshoemagnets.com </font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 07 January 2004 at 03:54 AM.]</p></FONT>

Great stuff, folks --thanks! -GV