The Steel Guitar Forum

Hello folks,

As some of you already know, I'm a beginner, and I have a few question regarding the standard E9 set up.
I have a Carter starter and I have some problem with TABs regarding the name of the knee levers.
Here is the Carter starter copedant :
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
PEDALS KNEE LEVERS
<-- --> <-- -->
A B C F D X E
Ga. E9 1 2 3 LKL LKR RKL RKR
----------------------------------------
12 F#
15 Eb D
11 G# A
14 E F# F Eb
17 B C# C# Bb
22W G# A
26W F#
30W E F Eb
34W D
36W B C#
----------------------------------------
</pre></font>Is that right ?
I thought that the knee lever called here "D" was the "E" and the one called here "E" was the "D".
Some of TABs I have doesn't respect this copedant ?!?!

Another thing : On the 5th string, if I push the pedal "A" and engage the "X" lever, what note must I have ?
I think it must be a C, but I don't have that note, just a note between B and C while my steel is well tuned ?!?!

Last thing : I tune my steel with the help of the "tunitup" guide by Jeff Newman, but there is nothing about the "X" lever, could someone help me with that, what is the good value when this lever is engaged ?

Well, any information will be helpfull, thanks in advance for that.

Best regards,
olivier<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by b0b on 18 November 2003 at 03:41 PM.]</p></FONT>

Welcome to the club of confusion and frustration when it comes to our beloved instrument.

Here's the scoop. When Buddy Emmons split the lone Bud Isaacs pedal into A and B he located the A pedal (raising the B's to C#) as his most left pedal.

However his friend Jimmy Day did it just the opposite. IE, Jimmy located his A pedal to the right of his B pedal.

To further complicate matters when the C pedal was added some (who follow the JD setup) have pedals arranged as C B A insted of A B C.

Still further confusion ensued when knee levers came along. Here is what happened. The first common knee lever on PSG's lowered the 2nd string to a D and lowerd the 8th string to an Eb.

This lever was called the D lever by some. NOTE: It was called the D lever NOT because it lowered the 2nd string to a D note; rather because it was the next letter in the alphabet to the already established A B C pedals.

However when they added a 2nd knee lever which lowered Both E's to Eb leaving the original knee lever just lowering the 2nd string to a D note, some called the 2nd lever the D lever while others named it the E lever. Jeff Newman has always called this 2nd lever the D lever. But many of us call it the E lever. In fact I believe MOST call it the E lever.

To further compicate matters. When they added the 4th knee lever, (Almost everyone calls the 3rd knee lever the F lever), some called it the G lever; again because it was the next letter of the alphabet (NOT because it raised 1 and 7 to a G note).

Yet others called this 4th lever the "X" lever while some call the 5th lever (left knee vertical which you do not have) the X lever.

This is sad, since it leads to the very confusion you have. It is further exacebated by the fact that a number of levers have been changing recently because of newer changes that have come about.

Such as, lowering of the 9th string to a C# with the lever that lowers the 2nd string. In addition, the original idea of lowering the 2nd string to a D was changed to lowering it to a C# with a half stop (D) on it.

On the Carter Starter you have, a comprimise was made to try and include as much as possible to offer you the greatest flexibility at the lowest possible cost. So this further can be confusing when reading tab, talking, watching or listening to others including videos.

In time you will learn all of this better with experience. And the secret is, it does not matter what it is called as long as you KNOW what it does. Its location is subjective.

Finally the "C" note you get when using the A pedal and the knee lever which lowers your B to Bb is not in tune because this is the nature of the beast. Higher priced PSG's often have an optional way of tuning this "split".

However there is a way around this even on your guitar. Simply begin to use what steel players have done since the beginning of the PSG. Simply half pedal the A pedal. Sounds difficult and is difficult for most at first. But like anytying else you soon will master it if you practice a lot.

Good luck to you and may Jesus nurture your years ahead as you enjoy the world's most beautiful instrument,

carl
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 18 November 2003 at 07:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

You can count on the A,B, and C pedals being the same as any tab you will see. A lot of tab will indicate at the top what the lettering represents, or just have +/- next to the notes being played.

At the end of the day, if you have a letter next to the notes on strings 5 and 10, and it's not A-pedal, it's going to be the "X" lever. If you see change on the 2 or 9 string, it'll be the D#/D-C# lower. Anything outside of what the carter starter has ("industry standard" package of pulls, seems like) will almost be guaranteed to be listed at the top of the tab sheets you are looking at.

The "split" mentioned above is an additional pull rod that compensates for the inaccuracy of the combined raise/lower. Plus two half-steps and minus one half-step won't work like basic math... I don't think you can add splits to the Starter, but you can just tune the A+X=C split, if you find you don't use the Bb much. Half pedalling is a good skill to work on, tho.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Nicholas Dedring on 18 November 2003 at 09:24 AM.]</p></FONT>

The Carter Starter Setup is about as "Standard" as you'll get.

The ABC pedals are rather standard, although some perfer to arrange them CBA.
(That's the diff between the Emmons and Day setups)

Noone can agree on the designation letters for the KLs. Accept that. Memorize their functions, such as "my LKR lowers my E's", etc. Then when you look at tabs see what letter that tabber assigned to that KL.

Hello,

Thanks for your information.
Sorry for the Carter starter copedant, it looked good when I wrote the message, but now I see there is a problem
So here is the link for those who want to see it without squinting ! http://www.carterstarter.com/cssetup.html

Well, it would be cool if everybody give the knee lever the same name ...
But regarding all your explanation, it seems to be easy, it's just a matter of method.
As I can read music, it would have been easy to look at the note to see the change, but most of the TABs are just TAB !
But if it works for you, it will work for me, as a beginner it's a little bit confusing now, but sooner it will rock !

In fact I tried to play a TAB where there are lots of "7AX" and it doesn't work on my steel (and I can't do it on the 10th string neither ...).
Well, regarding your advices, it's better to get the half step on A pedal, as I have a good ear, I think there won't be a problem, I just have to practice (and it will work on the 10th string too).

But however, is there anybody who have a picture of undercarriage which shows the additional pull rod to get the "C" note while "A" pedal and "X" knee lever are engaged ?

And what about the tuning of the "X" lever, what is the good value on the tuner ?

Thanks for all, I'm gonna (try to) play my TAB with the half step on "A" pedal !!!

Best regards,
olivier

Ok Olivier,

Here is the scoop on the "split" feature. There are two ways it is done:

1. The extra raise rod method.

2. The allen set screw method.

Any PSG that allows additional raise rods (yours does not), can utilize the extra rod method. You simply add a "raise" rod to the lower bellcrank that lowers the B to Bb (A#). You feed this rod thru an unused raise hole in the changer finger.

You adjust it as follows:

1. Engage the A pedal and the knee lever that lowers the B's.

2. Adjust the normal lower nylon tuner for a true sounding "split" or C note.

3. Release the A pedal and adjust the addtional raise rod nylon tuner for the lower note; or Bb.

To tune this note (the X lever), use the 7th string as a major "3rd" note with the Bb. IE, F# and A# so they sound sweet.

Good luck,

carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 18 November 2003 at 02:12 PM.]</p></FONT>

Some people call "E" "D". It really doesn't matter, since you can tell by looking at which string the letter is on.

When you see a D or an E on the second string, push the lever that lowers the second string.

When you see a D or an E on the fourth string, push the lever that lowers the fourth string.

The important thing to remember is that D and E are lower levers. Learn which knee levers lower which strings, and it will always be obvious.

On the Sho-Bud Maverick (an antique student model guitar), the "D" lever lowered the 2nd and 8th strings. So it was a combination of both the "D" and "E" levers, no matter which way you name them.

------------------
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.....or as Jeff Newman says, "push lever ___ to lower or raise string ___ or, push the lever YOU use to lower or raise string ___."

www.genejones.com

MY 2 cents worth and we all know what 2 cents is worth.Oliver,IMOP i think the best advice you were given is not to worry about notes at first.Learn what your pedals do and you are on your way.I believe pedal set up is personal preference,also tunings.Many years ago i got fed up with the 3rd string breakage so i tuned the E9th down to E flat.The 3rd still broke often so i went on down to D9th and put heavier gauge strings on all except the 3rd.No one ever noticed i didn't have the E9th tuning until they tried to play it.I aso reveresed the 8th and 7th string,this was before i went to 10 string.So that made the bottom C the 8th string and te 7th.Had it out of the way so i could raise the 7th string A to a B which added the 6th to it.Then i could get much of the C6th sound.Later after i had the pedals i did as most do now.Lowered the 2 Ds which are the E's on the E 9th tuning and had an A6th.So the bottom line is,i didn't worry about the notes so much as that came later.Got the sound i was looking for.If this sounds confusing,it probably is.I sold my 75 MSA classic some time back not realizing i was steel addicted to steel.Bought a used Carter SD 10 from Charlie Norris back in Sept.I changed every thing and put my own ignorant set up on it.Was amazed how easy it was to change the pedal set up.It also stays in tune like the MSA i played on the road for almost 30 years.I still use the old MSA volume pedal i got with it.By the way,this might be the wrong place to put this but i still ave the bracket that holds the volume pedal to the pedal board on the old MSA.I have no idea if it is worth anything but if some MSA owner would like to have it let me know and i will give it to some one who will send a donation to Bob.Oh yes,Has any one heard how Charlie Norris is doing.The very best to all.Tracy

P.S.Didn't check close enough for my typing misteaks.Tracy

<SMALL>I thought that the knee lever called here "D" was the "E" and the one called here "E" was the "D".</SMALL>

As I understand it, when instruction is involved the folks at Carter deliberately follow Jeff Newman's way of thinking whenever possible. In addition to the knee lever designations, I believe I was also told that the choice to include a 5th string lower instead of a 1st string raise was also done with Newman's instructional material in mind.

Given Jeff Newman's prominent place in the world of psg instruction, this approach makes some sense. However, it makes more sense to me personally to designate the knee levers the way most people do.

That's the problem with labelling knee knee levers as F or E or D or whatever.
When I did my book I used R for raise and L for lower.
The best system of tab (wish I thought of it) was Crawford's "Mu-Sym-Tab" which didn't label them as anything but the ACTION of the note you want. "Play the 8th string and raise it a half tone" THAT is what the "F" lever does.
Until you know what your movements do, you'll be lost.
Jimmie realized this when he was playing some stuff for a person who came by to see him after being in town for a Jeffran Seminar, and the guy said, "how'd you do that?"
And Jimmie said, "T start with the 6th string on the third fret and slide it to the 8th fret and raise it a half tone."
And the person said, "Do I have that change on MY guitar?"
Well, it's the "B" pedal. And Jimmie realized that all the person knew was "A" or "B" or "F" and had not conceptualized what they actually did.
Until you can understand what each change does, you'll be stuck playing from tab.

JW

Olivier, for me the best short term trick is to take the TAB's copedent page and your copedent
and pencil in the things that match and make a note of it that sticks out of the back page of the tab booklet.

Then when you get to the point on a page you forget which is the lever you use, then you have a fast reference to it..
pertaining to THIS tab booklet.

I have a bunch of tab and almost all are a bit different. They were all written at different times in steel development.
Some just don't translate to my steel, but there are plenty of parts that do, so I study them periodically.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 November 2003 at 05:14 AM.]</p></FONT>

Understand functions, as Winnie and others describe, is very important.

Even if you don't have a pedal or KL that is in the tab, you can usually get the same note by changing the bar fret.

Very true Joey. If you are picking single note runs, then that would be very possible. But, even with chords, there are other position/string combinations to acheive the inversion of the chord you may not be able to get. You may not be able to play the part you wants as smoothly (jumping to a fret farther away or changing string grips)as if you had the change you needed. But, you have most of the basic changes you need on that Carter to achieve much success as a steel player. I wish they would have been able to make a double stop on the second string so you could also lower it to C#.

Did that make sense?

Also, when I read tab in my early days, I always cross referenced the instructors naming convention to my own. I would just write RKL or whatever matched his setup next to his reference on the tab. This made it real easy for me to know exactly which lever I needed to activate.

Lastly, make sure you stay tuned to this forum and be sure to ask questions, no matter how silly or elementary you might think they are. Steel guitar players are the greatest bunch of people on earth. Always willing to give of themselves to help another.

You are so correct about steel players Richard.Back when i was first learning i think steel players hated to see me coming.lol.I was always asking,how do you do that lick,etc.That was way before tabs and computers.I did have an advantage as i alredy played fiddle on the road and was in the so called click at the time. I got help from some of the best steel players in the country.They showed me things that would have taken me years if ever to learn.One more tip Oliver which has been brought up before on the forum,if you can find an experienced steel player who will help you,by all means ask his help even if you have to pay.I was never charged by any steel player for help and i was always more than happy to help another player if i could because i never forgot the help i had.Tracy

Hi everybody,

Sorry for being so late to reply (too many things to do ...)

I would like to thank all of you for the advices and experience.
Now it's clear, just have to practice ...
again and again ... !

Best regards,
olivier

Moved to "Pedal Steel" section of the Forum.