Tone question for recording pros...?

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

This question is for professional players that are hired to record in the studio for top name singers.

Is the sound/tone of your steel guitar on the record close to what you intended? Or, does the engineer/producer add their own interpretation of how the steel should sound during mixdown long after you have left the studio?

When I listen to steel guitar albums that are essentially produced by the steel guitarist, the tone of the steel guitar is exceptional. And it doesn't matter who the guitarist is or what kind of guitar they are playing. When I listen to a country song on an album that is obviously engineered and produced by a non-steel player, I can hear a real difference. The steel seems thinner in tone. Is this a coincidence? Is there a conscious effor by producers to purposely downplay the steel guitar in modern recordings to differentiate them from classic recordings from the 60's - 80's so that todays recordings are perceived as new and different as opposed to old-fashioned? Or, do producers just not have a clue as to how a steel guitar is supposed to sound.

I may be wrong about this but I seem to remember Paul Franklin saying that he was not happy with the tone on "Don't Rock The Juke Box" when he heard the final mix. I thought that his (or the producer's) tone was so radically different that it was actually fantastic! New trailblazing stuff! I loved it. It sounded like it was intended to be a radically new in-your-face sound and it worked.

My opinion is that good tone is abundant on the vast majority of the recordings offered by b0b in the forum catalog. My theory is that if these same players went into a studio in Nashville to record for a new singer, you wouldn't recognize the tone when you heard the CD!

Terry

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

. wrong thread

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 November 2003 at 10:01 AM.]

basilh · From: United Kingdom

I think a slightly "Thinner" tone is required when backing a vocalist, so the steel can sit within the mix and still have definition.
When used on a solo track, the steel REPLACES the vocalist and subsequently has the "Larger" sound.
I think !!
Baz
www.waikiki-islanders.com

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Terry,
I record a bit on a professional level in NYC and in my experience they leave the tone pretty much alone. If a producer needs to mess around with your track too much after you leave it means he hired the wrong guy. If a producer is going to screw up my sound it usually is from overcompression. But that can be my fault if I don't keep my articulation in line.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the context that the steel part is in will have a drastic effect on the sound of the steel. It is easy to get a big full steel sound if there is no other instruments in the steels sonic area like on most steel CDs. If I'm playing in a cluttered track I need to keep my tone focused in order to make through to the final mix. A big lush steel guitar CD type tone can turn into mud real fast if it is sharing space with strings, keys and whatever else is on the track. A bunch depends on if my role is to be on top of the mix or blended into it.

I'm interested in hearing about how it is in other parts of the country or world for that matter.

Bob

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

Bob, Thanks for responding. I understand that the steel has to set in the mix without conflicting with other instruments in the same frequency range, however, they were doing it in the 70's and 80's with piano and strings and the tone seemed to be "fatter". One of my favorite steel recorded CDs is George Strait's "Holding My Own". The mix was incredible throughout the entire CD. The steel shared the mix with a host of instruments and everthing is perfect in the mix. For me, that CD will always be 'the' example of recording engineering excellence and steel guitar tone combined.

Terry

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Far from being a "pro", I've done some recording, and they'll adjust the tone to what they think sounds good. I'd imagine that most backup steelers (who use an amp) are simply "guided" by the engineer to produce an acceptable tone...which may be changed (after the steeler leaves). Those who direct-in are at the total mercy of the engineers, since "flat" steel usually sounds pretty bad.

I've heard of several top-level pros who were "dissatisfied" with their sound in some final mixes, but the pay's still the same, regardless. When asked to do backup, we steelers are contractors, not customers.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

The better "tone/timbre" the players puts down on tape, the harder the engineers job it is to destroy it. I try to make his job of destroying it as hard as possible.

bobbeseymour (Grand Ompah Wizard)

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Boy, Bobbe just said a mouthful! I don't generally get to track with "top name" vocalists here in Atlanta, but usually the basic tone I put down makes it through to the finally mix pretty well. Where I hear the most changes on the final mix are in reverb and other ambiences, from too dry through a nice blend to too much effect. It does seem that many recent Nashville releases have a thin almost nasty steel sound, and I wouldn't blame all that on the players... I just did a session for the Indigo Girls with Peter Collins producing (Elton John, Nancy Griffith, LeAnnn Rhimes, on and on). He seemed really pleased with my tone, and I'm real interested to see how it ends up in the mix. And if they remember to send me my platinum record...

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Franklin · Posted 5 Nov 2003 6:17 am

These days the tone I hear on the CD is usually alot different than what I tracked with..... I have no control over that.

I start with trebs at 6 / bass at 7/ and mids at 2 and use no compression and as the engineer is finding room for me he may ask me to increase or decrease something. I usually will only have to move a control by one digit to satisfy the request..
The tone change from the tracking date comes at the mixing stage, which is done almost always by a different engineer.
Sometimes the mixed steel sounds like It was recorded with maxed out highs, no lows, and a ton of mids besides being compressed. Other times its hard to believe it can sound so good.

Bill Hatcher in the "steel bashing" thread summed it up correctly. Its also not the engineers fault. Their job is to make sure every part from the tracking date and overdubs is heard. Remember their gig is on the line, too.

If I were to approach sessions from the 70's tonal viewpoint my playing would probably only be heard, when and if, I was asked to play the solo. I agree with Bob, those instumentalist tones sit ON the track the same as the vocal does. When you pull the solo tones back in the mix under the vocal they tend to muddy up the track which leads eventually to the mute button.

Terry...comparing full records from 30 years ago to todays records doesn't work.
There are usually four electric guitar parts, one to two acoustic guitar tracks, acoustic piano, synth, and organ tracks along with the steel on most songs today, and then they make records bigger by adding overdubs.....sometimes mandolin and banjo rhythm, fiddles, background vocals, strings, Drum loops, percussion, accordian and so on.

Back in the 70's, if there was an organ on the track the steel was asked to lay out and vice versa and today they co-exist simultaneously.

Terry.....These are different musical times.

Today it amazes me, with a wall of instruments playing at once, that the engineers are still able to make my pads come through. The alternative to the tone change of the steel is not being heard. I prefer changing the tone to accomodate the instruments existence.

I know for certain, because I have tried everything mentioned in this thread, using an instrumentalist tone will not work in 90% of my calls.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 05 November 2003 at 06:24 AM.]

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Just to add to what Paul said, which is right on, is the volume war that is going on these days. CDs have gotten so loud, and this is achieved using heavy limiting and compression. Mixes tend to be thinner cause they squash easier that way. A thick mix gets really thick when you compress it. So...

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

I am not recording on a professional level yet, so it would be inappropriate for me to respond to the question. (I am getting more and more session work here in NYC, I am happy to say.) Nevertheless, I wanted to thank Paul for his post and the wealth of knowledge it contained. We are all so lucky to have this great Forum!

Gerald

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

Thanks to all for your comments. They are very enlightening.

Paul, Thank you for sharing your vast recording experience with us. You confirmed what I've suspected all along that engineers will do what they need to do with your steel track so it sits properly in the mix even if it means sacrificing some tonal qualities. The sonic qualities of the steel guitar in modern recordings have received some negative commentary on the forum recently and this observation on the part of the steel players here is not without merit. I have suspected all along that the steel player on the recordings is not responsible for sound/tone we hear on the final mix. Good, bad, or indifferent. Todays music, especially the recording process, and especially pop country, is way more complicated than 20-30 years ago. I long for the simpler times when the Buckaroos simple combo went into the studio (guitar, steel, bass, drums). Back then they were the rockablilly of country music. Big on simplicity, big on attitude. But you can't live in the past. Times change. Music changes.

Maybe the pendulum is starting to swing back!

We can dream!

And if it does, there are a hell of a lot steel players on this forum that will be ready!

Terry

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

THE PENDULUM WILL SWING BACK!!!
It's just a matter of when will it happen.

When I was 10 years old listening to Tammy Wynette singing "D-I-V-O-R-C-E", I thought to myself, "boy, some adults sure live in a miserable world, I'll never let that happen to me and live in a world like that...".

One day about the time I turned 30, I realized, "Hey, that is the real world...".

It'll all come back "cause Country Music with Steel Guitar is the real world.

Paul, thanks again for your insight and sharing your experience. The engineer must have given it all to you because your steel on "That Side of You" (Mark Chestnut) is thing of real beauty.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 05 November 2003 at 09:28 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

We are very fortunate here to have Paul answer our questions and help us as steel guitar players. He deserves a big thanks along with the other masters who take the time to talk with us. We truly have a great forum for discussion here.

Tony Rankin · From: Land O’ Lakes, FL

Well said Kevin!

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