The Steel Guitar Forum

I for one am tired of going to the St.Louis psgc and hearing too much progressive jazz on the c-6 neck. Progressive jazz is fine if kept in check but I am of the belief that MOST steel players play steel guitar for the country sounds and of course some classical. I will abstain from the St.Louis convention for a while because of this. Also, while on the subject, my wife and I were not treated as guests at the Millenum Hotel. They need an attitude adjustment there. Anyone else had the same experience?

...sorry, Don, I guess I'm not most players...I'm going to the Norwalk show, and I can't wait to see Doug Jernigan and Herby Wallace play some jazz...not to mention killer C-6 player John Widgren...and a ton of other great players playing everything the steel guitar is capable of playing...

...and I haven't heard the hotel staff ask any of the patrons to vacuum the carpet, or to make the beds...nobody even yells at you to wipe your feet when you come in the front door, so I guess the patrons are treated as guests.. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 23 October 2003 at 06:51 AM.]</p></FONT>

I went for 12 years in a row back in the late 70's and 80's. The reason I stopped going was because I got sick of 'A Way to Survive'.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

And I thought I was a strictly country fan.

I can't imagine anyone not hearing enough country steel at Scotty's. The music on the big stage has to be at the very least 85% country genre, which is fine with me.

Country is where I'm at but I have to admit that I like the CD's I've been buying from the players. Yes, even the more jazz, blues and big band tunes.

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HagFan

<SMALL>I have to admit that I like the CD's I've been buying from the players. Yes, even the more jazz, blues and big band tunes.</SMALL>

Good for you Ron.

I too am a country fan but I really think that steel has a place in jazz-- possibly even more than so than in country music.

In St. Louis, if progressive and lite jazz wasn't a part of the overall show, I'm not sure there would be enough country lovers attending to keep the show alive. Jazz lovers make up a significient part of the total of attendees.

Somebody's just gonna have to tell all those great C6 players to keep it "in check"!!!

I think we got plenty of country at the conventions.I wanna hear more jazz,a little rock $ roll as well as some classical. I'd like to see a bigger contingent of Hawaiian musicians than I've seen the past few years in St Louis. I'd also like to see more black folks there playing and diggin on a little blues/gosple steel. An how about some Cajun steel?
But that's just me... -MJ-<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Michael Johnstone on 23 October 2003 at 09:59 AM.]</p></FONT>

hmmmmmmmm

"If I dude it I git a whippin!!!"


Hmmmmmmm


"I dude it"

I will be tarred, feathered, dipped in you know what and roled in tobacco juice for this; but I will say it anyway since I believe it NEEDS to be said.

First of all what many call Jazz and/or progressive Jazz is not (IMO) what is being played by many steel players; who follow the following boring scenario on C6 at most conventions:

1. 8 bars of melody.

2. 27 minutes of the same old worn out boring 22 rifle shot "licks" that say nothing musically

3. 8 bars of melody.

Now having said that, I dearly love jazz. Buddy Emmons recording of "Steel Guitar Jazz" WAS jazz. And it was great then and even greater today as I listen to it often. But Buddy is a rare steel guitar player. In a word, everything he has ever played says something to the listener.

It takes zero talent (musically) to sound like a kid out in the back yard shootin a 22 rifle. And as on one of my dear friends Mac Atcheson use to say, "he aint hittin nothin, he's just shootun".

This is what my ears hear at most conventions when players (except Buddy and a couple more) start that "he aint hittin nothun, he's just shootun" scenario.

What is even more irritating to my ears, is the fact that the C6 neck has soooooooooo much more to offer. And yet it is always the same. 8 bars of melody, 22 min of boring "shootin" and end it with 8 bars of melody.

Even sadder is the boring act of every lead member of the band playing the same ole boring licks on each tune. Which each of them could do in their sleep. Robbing the audience of their awesome talents; because they are there to embellish the steel guitar. So as bubba does, bubbII, III and IV does!

Now having said that, I could listen to Juaquin Murphy, Curly Chalker or Buddy Emmons do it all night long, all day long and then some. Because they ARE hittin "somethun".

I simply walk out when they start that "nothing" to my ears mess. NO producer of any reknown in the world would ever even consider that worthy of even a mention. And the reason is, NO one likes it but the player and a few die hards that like it plus those that say, "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

Well to each his own. I shall call it as I "hear" it. And what I hear is nothing times nothing. UNLESS in the incredible hands of BE, CC or JM and a very few others like Doug Jernigan.

So there I "dude" it. I will git a big "whuppun" for it. But this dude stands on it.

Bless you all, I need to find some cover and a flame suit.

carl

I have not been to St. Louis in a while but it is not due to the music. I love to hear country primarily but I have no problem with the C6th. I guess that is why there is such a variety of music in the world today. I go to hear the guys play and meet new people I have never met before, especially those on these forums. I met 3 or 4 guys at the Texas show who respond on this forum quiet often. As far as the song "A Way To Survive", I could listen to Buddy Emmons play it all day long, but then he is my all-time favorite player. I enjoying meeting new people and what better people to meet than a bunch of steel players. It is also nice that several states have an individual show as well. By the way, Buddy Emmons will be at the 2004 Texas show. I wish it were tomorrow, I can hardly wait....Paul King

I love to hear great musicianship and good taste, C6th, E9, bass clarinet, percussion ensemble, whatever...I don't care if it's A Way To Survive or Giant Steps or Stravinsky or The Carpenters, I like to think I know the difference between gratuitous hot lick spewing and virtuosity in service to the music. Both of them exist in all styles of music, on all instruments.

Also, a plain fact is we tend to like stuff we're exposed to early on- if you never liked jazz and never listened to it until you liked it then you may never develop a taste for it.

But, ya know, to each his own, cheers! You can always go schmooze when (insert what you don't like to hear here) is on...

Long live the great steelers of all necks, pedal or non! An all (e9 or C6th or Hawaiian or Bebop or) world would be pretty boring. Music from Buddy Emmons, Jerry Byrd, Charlie Parker, Bill Monroe, The Who, The Beatles and hundreds of others have made life a heck of a lot more interesting!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER></p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER></p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 23 October 2003 at 10:44 AM.]</p></FONT>

You said it all, John. There's lots of great music out there, but only two kinds---good and bad(Sorry, Duke). I don't like playing for the sake of showing off one's technique, but give me some good jazz, and one less 4/4 shuffle, make me happy!
And brother Carl, I want to meet you, my friend. You mentioned Mac Atcheson, he did some work on the LeGrande I traded to Bob Evens, and Bob, Charles Reese, and a whole lot of other good folks have spoken highly of him. Must have been a good guy. How about e-mailing me your phone number, let's talk!?

Well, it is true what they say; sometimes you have to wade through a lot of ???? to find some gems and I feel that every convention has them.

While I prefer the E9th, it is probably because I can relate to that neck rather than C6th although I love to hear the C6th because IMHO it is more difficult to master. However, as Carl pointed out 8 bars of melody and then 22 bars of whatever does get old.

To me, there were two gems at the show this year and those were Sara Jory and Lloyd Green. Hopefully, Carl and the others did not miss out on both of those incredibly talented people. Sara is a show person for sure and Lloyd is pure class and it oozes from his fingers to the guitar.

That made the trip worth while IMHO.

Regards,

Mark T.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by mtulbert on 23 October 2003 at 12:31 PM.]</p></FONT>

Hi Steve,

Mac Atcheson was to just about everyone who ever knew him, the dearest person of them all. Truly the kindest and most helpful person I have EVER known. And one of the greatest steel guitar players I ever knew. ONLY BE could bring chills more than Mac.

As my dear friend Garland Nash (a star in his own right) once put it, "it is a humbling experience to listen to Mac play". Truer words were never spoken. His entire heart and soul came out of his amp every time he picked a string. NEVER seen anything like it. EVER.

And he could not, if his life depended on it, tell you what he just did. The reason was "that moment" was gone by the time he could tell you, so he truly had NO idea what he just played that was soooo incredibly beautiful. Only players like Jerry Byrd exhibit that unbelievable "heart and soul" when they play. Mac was born with it. He died with it. And just about anyone who ever heard him play will echo my remarks and then some.

He passed on recently and we all miss him terribly.

My number is 770-448-8455

call anytime. I am always eager to talk to a fellow steel guitarist,

carl

I am not an accomplished musician on any instrument and won't sit in judgement of anyones ability or choice of music presentation
My wife and I listen to a variety of music at home, usually older recordings ,country, pop, big bands , instrumental,
We both thoroughly enjoyed attending our first steel convention in St Louis ,and greatly enjoyed listening to every player there including the back up musicians.
Hats off to MR. Joe Wright and his daughter Although the original recording artists version of the rock tune they did together isnt our choice of music, the way they did it, it was terrific.
We thought everyones playing was top shelf and everyone we had contact with was very gracious.
Lord willing we will be back next year And thanks to Scotty's for the steel radio too.
There is a big < FREE> Blues festival on the St Louis Riverfront, at the same time as the Steel Convention, and within easy walking distance of the Milineium Hotel
Larry

I've heard lots of complaints about the Millennium Hotel, but hey---they're just like most businesses today. All they think is "bottom line", and if they tarnish their reputation while making an extra 1% profit, well...they're more than willing to make that sacrifice. For most big corporations in this country, customer service has gone to hell. Scotty tries hard to iron out the problems and see that everyone's happy, but he just rents the place...he doesn't own it. No doubt, if he did, there would be no complaints (that's the kind of guy he is).

As far as the type of music played, they have all types and all skill levels. If you don't enjoy a certain player, you're free to check out the vendors, or find other diversions. (Nothing lasts very long at these shows.) Some players are great, and some are just average. Some play "my kind of music", and some don't. I still find that I can learn something, though, provided I watch them with an open mind.

My experience with the Millenium was quite good this year. '02 was the real stinker.

C6th jazz? Go for it, I'll be hugging some porcelain down the hall.

As for Mr. Sullivan's appraisal of the Blues Fest, I agree, it was kicking.
That little three piece band up toward the north part of Laclede's Landing put out some of the best music I'd heard all weekend.

I started out playing A major tuning with low bass notes, and they thought we needed diagrams instead of music to start off with.
After a year it was E major tuning and the Oahu steel guitar course. Hank Williams guitar player in Montgomery, my home town, was using Am7 with a banjo string on top and I adapted to that tuning, we all thought this was great far a variation of songs. None of this was E9, not even very close. Also C#M was very popular. So we with 6 strings playing dances we found we spent a lot of time tuning during a gig, at least I did.
C6 became very popular back then cause on the bottom was more useable with this tuning.
C6 was the stable tuning for a lot of us because of the ability to find more songs with this tuning. This is the was I see it and so this sound was my meat and bread, also I liked the sound and possibilities of this tunning. Guess what I love it today, and drop to the bottom neck often. It worked back then and still works today for a lot of us. I guess it was a stand by.
Many may disagree with this but that is every ones choice and they may.
I love the sound of C6.
Thanks for allowing me my 2 cents worth

ernie

I have been wanting to go to St. Louis for the better part of 30 yrs. This year I am
going. Already have my reservations.
I like all styles of music, always have, always will, especially when played on steel. Country, swing, jazz, played fast slow, chords, singlestring it all sounds good when played well. I am excited about going as I have heard more good than bad. I NEED to go before any more of my heros go to that "big convention in the sky"
Going to make the Dallas show also. Don't
want to miss BE and DJ since they are this close. Hope to see and meet some of the forumites.
Keep pickin, Larry

I for one go to St. Louis to see and hear the best. There is no one that loves Country music more than me, however I totally love to see the instrument put through it's paces by the masters.Doug and Herby are two very versitle players who mix their sets. Scotty does a great job of balancing the lineups.If one doesn't like a certain players style, there is certainly things to do around the convention area until your favorites play.The Steel is still and always will be necessary for a true country sound..But if the instrument is to continue it's growth, it needs to sell it's vesitility to all musics. With the amount of players booked at the shows ,it would get old fast if everyone played and sounded the same. I go to hear Loydd Green,Buddy Emmons,Russ Hicks and Jimmy Crawford and everything else is a bonus for me. I even went once just to hear smiley Roberts. I have never been disapointed I come home broke but never disapointed.JMHO

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@^@

It's a "steel guitar convention". Not a Jazz or Country music convention. I would expect nothing less than to see and hear everything the pedal, non pedal, and resophonic guitars, have to offer in music, equipment, guitars, instructional materials, and musical performances.

My expectations were more than met during my first visit to St. Louis last labor day weekend. There was something there for everybody all the time!

Great job Scotty!



Terry

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

I went to St Louis this year for the 1st time. It was great ; all the styles that were played included.

But to say there was "Progresive Jazz" there is stretching it.
The styles which I think might have been Don's buggaboo here, were progressive in the 40's, 50's and maybe 60's.
They may still be progressive in the steel world.

Not to say I didn't like it. I did.
But I didn't hear Dave Ristrim and the one or two others who are playing progressive jazz.

There was lots of good jazz there, though some did fall into Carl Dixons desription also.
Not enough large, arranged hamonic and modal sections with arranged polyphony, not just long solos.

I think Doug Jernigan and Jim Cohen are the most likley of this years players to expand to still another level, but that still gives the house band a tought row to hoe.
And they are, to a man, fine players.

I missed much of Jim's set, to my great distress, so I didn't hear if he did the Isreali National Anthem like on his CD, but I found that progressive on steel, if not progressive jazz as typically defined.

BUT and a BIG but, it would be damned hard on the house band to cop anything beyond the "basic" chord charts and straight ahead jazz arrangments they have to play now.

When do they have the time to rehearse hipper stuff?

I know I sat-in with the band on a set.
I could have handled tougher charts, but Chuck Lettes set was eclectic, sweet, cool and layed back at the same time, so that was the right arrangments to play.

I think true progressive jazz might be a bit too far for many of the St Louis audience, but I personally would welcome it.
I want to see people pushing the envelope on the PSG, much as Big E did in the 60's.
Now that, then, WAS progressive. And his set's at St. L. were great.

And Gene's point below makes perfet sense also. The steel convention is the place to see what steelers can do, not the normal daily grind stuff.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 October 2003 at 09:15 AM.]</p></FONT>

Don, I appreciate your viewpoint....but the truth is, if those guys were not allowed to play "out of the box" most of them would not play at the shows. It's a chance for them to do something that they don't do everyday to make a living.
www.genejones.com

David, I'm flattered and humbled to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Doug Jernigan, who, in my mind is the leading jazz proponent on steel today. I agree fully that what I play, as well as Doug and nearly all steelers who play "jazz" at steel shows, is not what I would call (in the year 2003) "progressive jazz". You are quite correct that it would be a trainwreck to attempt to play true "progressive jazz" using a house band, no matter how great these guys are (and they are great musicians). But there is NO rehearsal; you bring your charts, hand them out, check your volume and start the count-off! If they've never heard the tune before, have no clue of the groove you're looking for, etc., it's just not gonna 'happen' and by the third measure you'll be sorry you tried this. The only guys I've ever seen pull this off have brought their own pre-rehearsed bands to the show, and that's rare because of the expense involved. So you're gonna hear a lot of "jazz standards" or things built off of blues or jazz-blues changes that have a much higher likelihood of success.

Having said that, I should add that I love to play jazz standards and have not really developed either the ear or the chops for "progressive jazz" at this stage of my so-called career. Maybe someday...