Tone I Found it

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I have done everything I could to get the tone I loved. After years of trying and using different Amps, verbs, stereo,etc,
Last night as I was tuning up and setting my amp and tweaking my ultraverb down, alas there it was. The response from my bass, middle and highs were what I have been looking for.
I could hit a chord, it had the right sound, go to the bath room come back and it was still ringing, the bass like MSA That Lou had Wen. nite at the Jam that I just loved, the highs were just right. Who needs a new guitar that I always thought had the sound I was looking for. My 31 year old Sho-bud sure looks better every day.
BUT I want a new MSA, or Mullen,GFI, or what ever new one I may try out that sounds great.
Is this not the American way to want something new or better.

Just maybe this is where the tone is, in our wishes and not in the heart.
Right now mine is swelling mighty big, and looking to get back to Quitman Tuesday and hear more of what I found last night.

my 2 cents don't mean much but here they are.

ernie

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I've got a 25 year old PIII Sho~Bud I bought for 600$ GI Dollars in Oxon Hill MD. Played it since it was born.

It took me turning off my amp reverbs and using the settings that were published tht Lloyd Green was using on an RV3. Peavey knobs ALL set at 2:30, sweep left 100% Bright knob pulled on the 400, rewound Sho~Bud single coils to 1600k by JW/TT.

That, and hearing Gary Morse's 36 year old Sho~Bud with 710s in it playing on the stage that I usually do.

It seems to be getting pretty clear what the "sound" is that most of us are shooting for.

Why not?

Shot and Buddy were pretty happy with it....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 12 October 2003 at 11:18 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I know a LOT of people who have gotten fed up with their old Bud or push/pull, bought a shiny new guitar, then complained that they couldn't make the new one sound like the old one. Most of them sold their old guitar to get the new one and kicked themselves in the butt for doing so.

Just my 'sperience. I guess I'm fortunate to have a good old 'un and a good new 'un.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Ernest: I'm happy for you as I'm sure all other Forumites are.

For me, it was going backwards, down to that ages old Harmony with the 8 inch speaker and no reverb....hooked-up to my old Rick that gave me the "sound" I've searched a lifetime to find.

Where ever one finds it...it's pure GOLD.

Now go play the heck out of it.

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

In answer to E-mails, yes it is an ultraverb 2. I have found you do not need a lot of the middle dial nor the output gain for the best sound. When they are turned up the sound is artificial. I listened to this one night recorded on video, and was tired of it in a hurry. Also went back to the 1973 model Shobud Amp, with no reverb.
You would not believe the sound.
The highs are nat, the mids are verry good and the lows sound to me like the MSA bASS.

PS I have been reminded by E-Mail to show what patch Lead guitar #008

ERNIE

[This message was edited by Ernest Cawby on 12 October 2003 at 07:26 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

You are all wrong. According to some here, tone doesn't matter, especially if you are in the business of building modern, light weight guitars.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 12 October 2003 at 11:29 AM.]

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I am not arguing Puss pull or all pull I do not know what they are really.
When I found this sound by just adjustments then I began to hear how I was really playing insted of listening for sound.
My phrasing was not good, my timing was off, Now listening to recordings, and hearing what is really happening things will get better faster from practice.

Thid Bud was bought in 73 and now I feel like I just stArted playing for real.

ernie

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I heard it "was all in the hands"

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I heard it was in God's hands. Makes sense to me. Especially on Sunday

.

EJL

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Congratulations, Ernest! I've always said that "the sound" is in there. You just gotta know how to get it out. I've never heard a bad-sounding guitar. (I have heard my share of players with "bad sounds", though.) Every guitar has it's own particular "voice", you just gotta find it. That goes for the "plywood" guitars, the "space-age plastic" guitars, the "kitchen counter-top" Formica guitars, the "aluminum door-sill extrusion" guitars, the cast-aluminum guitars, the (plastic?) Bakelite guitars, and even for the walnut-inlaid "dining room furniture" guitars.

I find it strange that guitars that some people said had such a "bad sound" sold so many thousands. Lotta deaf players, I guess.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

no new guitar will beat the sound of the Sho~Bud,period.I can plug my Sho~Bud straight into my Session 500 and it sounds amazing.Same with the Emmons p/p.The problem is that I can`t get the sound if I play with the loud rock band that sucks.Only thing I get in that case is headache.Good one too.

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Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

I have found that there are only two things that make me as happy as "good Tone"... my faith in God,and my Wife!
~~W.C.~~

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Kevin Hatton....It's puzzling why you're reluctant to mention the name of the company to which you infer, especially when its clear to everyone you are referring not only to MSA but to my recent essay, "Sound vs. Tone". I'm confident however, that most will clearly surmise the motives and subsequent intentions of your comment.

If you will again read my essay you will find I clearly stated, the most important asset about steel guitar is its inherent characteristics. I never said tone was not important, but I did say tone is subjective, therefore a conclusion as to "the" tone, (whatever that is) will never be determined.

Tone is simply an opinion to which everyone is certainly entitled, however because varied opinions exist, they validate the fact that erroneous conclusions have been made by some, that there is such a thing as "the" tone, which in reality..... does not exist.

Considering your comment, I would think you would be anxious and glad to respond to the following.....I believe "everyone who plays from their heart and soul and enjoys what they are playing, ALL have good tone". Do you agree or disagree?.........

Tone is of course important, but no specific tone of any specific guitar is "the" tone, nor is tone the most important aspect of the steel guitars marvelous and unique inherent characteristics which bring out the best in all who enjoy playing and strive to be the best they can be.

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

ReeceI really want to sit behind one of those MSA before I buy my new PSG, Lou played his at our last jam and it sounds wonderful to me, and it was an old one I think. keep up the good work.

ernie

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Ernest....Thank you for your interest in an MSA and for your kind comments. Should you have any questions concerning our Millennium, please let me know.

Roger Osbourn · From: Siloam Springs, Arkansas, USA

Hey there Ernest:I don't have a dog in this fight,but let me tell you what I have got.Like most folks I've spent a ton trying to find THAT SOUND I hear in my head.I went to Dallas last year and heard Reece play his Millennium and I loved that clear sparkly sound.I bought my Millennium D10 and got it home and couldn't find THAT SOUND.One day my efforts unit went south on me and I hooked my Millennium thru my Hilton pedal to my 2 Nashville 1000s.It sounded great to me.We had a jamboree a couple weeks ago and I got 2 compliments on the tone of my new steel.I played at the KSGA convention this weekend and one guy said I had the best tone there.You know,no one at either show said anything good about my playing. Oh well,I'm working on that every morning and evening. My point is I found my best sound by getting away from all that electronic effects.Now if I add anything I will be careful not to over do it and lose what I've found.That's my opinion,express yours.Roger

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Maurice, can anyone here express an opinion without you taking it personally? It sounds like you have a vendetta against people who don't like light weight guitars. I have my opinion and you have yours. Thats why this forum exists. It sounds like you have a personal problem with people expressing their opinion here. Thats just too bad.
Some guitars have good string separation, sustain and character from overtones. Others do not. Thats just a fact.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 October 2003 at 01:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 October 2003 at 01:43 PM.]

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Kevin H....I only responded because you directed your original comment toward MSA and myself. Of course anyone can express an opinion, but its now evident you have a problem with me expressing mine.

My comment did not constitute a vendetta, only an opinion to which I'm entitled, same as you. All I did was clearify that which you obviously overlooked in my essay.

Looking at your edits, you obviously changed your opinion more than once. Also you failed to respond to my question, was that intentional or did you overlook it?

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I directed a comment at you and MSA? Where? I made a general statement (see above). You took it personally. Here come the leg humpers. Did you ever hear of using the edit feature to correct spelling mistakes? I'm not perfect you know Maurice.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 October 2003 at 03:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 October 2003 at 03:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 October 2003 at 03:56 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Maurice, may we continue with our discussion? First of all Johnny Cox was kind enough to let me try his Millenium on stage in Nashville when he was playing with the Time Jumpers. I found it to be an extremely well engineered, great playing, and good sounding guitar. Not what I was looking for in sound, but then again I am extremely particular about what I hear. I reject 90% of the brands that I hear. Thats just me.
I cannot agree with your statement above. I think that an outstanding soulful performance on a poor sounding guitar is a deficient performance. Its like hearing a master violinist on a student violin. I believe that there are generally accepted qualities in steel guitar timbre/tone that constitute one guitar sounding better than others.
I can see how my statement above could irritate you. I'm sorry if it did. Its just that the guitars that I prefer are all as heavy as battleships.
Edited for spelling.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 October 2003 at 06:46 PM.]

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Okay, so the secret to a great tone is turning down the reverb. Hard to argue with that. Or am I missing something here? What is the point of this thread?

Ray Jenkins · From: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Kevin H....In response to your 10-13-03 3:50 post....Who else do you know who recently made their position about tone totally clear who is in the steel guitar business of (as you so stated) building modern lightweight guitars? Your original inference was most certainly directed toward me, which is the only reason I responded.

In none of your posts have you responded to my question, so I will rephrase in case it was not clear...."do you believe everyone who plays from their heart and soul who enjoys what they are playing, DON'T have good tone unless their guitar has the string separation, sustain and character from overtones which you personally believe to be critical?........

Surely you don't believe that! Everyone knows there is a complete spectrum of sounds which are all connected to the inherent characteristics of the steel guitar which are pleasing and provide joy to so many which would not be defined within the parameters of your personal preferance.

Of course we may continue with our discussion! I'm delighted you had the opportunity to play Johnny Cox's Millennium on the Opry and I greatly appreciate your positive comments about the guitar.

I regret you did not prefer the sound, but I respect your opinion, to which you are most certainly entitled. All I can say is, I haven't heard of anyone else who has said they didn't like his sound. This again proves my point, there is no "the" sound that everyone prefers. I also agree with you in that there is nothing wrong with one being particular about their personal sound.

We will have to disagree concerning your statement in which you said: "you think that an outstanding soulful performance on a poor sounding guitar is a deficient performance. It's like hearing a master violinist on a student violin"!

My first question would be....who is "the" authority who speaks for everyone and says anyone's tone is poor, or their performance for that matter? You are making a conclusion based on your personal likes and dislikes to which you are certainly entitled, but you do not speak for everyone, only yourself.

There are those who attempt to install themselves as "grand poopa's" of sound by expounding a forceful opinion concerning tone and performance, but they are wasting their time, because "grand poopa's" don't exist.

I have heard many soulful performances by musicians which might not have had the sound I prefer, but that did not diminish my enthusiasm, admiration and appreciation of their performance, nor did I have any indication they were unhappy with the sound they were getting which put them at the top of "their game".

If what you say is true , a great violinist would sound awful on a $20.00 fiddle. I beg to differ. A true artist playing from their heart and soul could put on a spellbinding performance with a $20.00 fiddle and most would appreciate their performance. Would they sound better on a $300,000.00 violin.....possibly to you and I, but certainly not to everyone, which again proves my point.

Your statement about sound does not irritate me, and I regret you may have gleaned that perception. I am however bothered by those who attempt to provide the impression they are "grand poopa's" who believe the sound they prefer is the one everyone should accept and prefer. There is no "the" sound.

I have preferred sounds just like everyone else, but I would never be so pompous and presumptious as to either comment or assume everyone should take my word for what sounds good or what "the" sound is. Everyones opinion is valid, and everyone has an opinion, which is why "the" sound or "the" guitar for everyone is non existant!

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Ray J....I'm not aware of any flames, only a respectful exchange and possible dignified differences which are simply a matter of opinion. Opinions are part of what makes the forum successful and at times informative.

If you are referring to my conversation with Mr. Hatton, you may be assured I have nothing but respect for both him and his views and opinions.

Ray Jenkins · From: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.

Reece, I'm not saying anybody was flaming anybody,however this subject got far and away from what Ernest wanted to share with all of us.He found what he was looking for in how he wanted to sound.I can relate to him for I just recently found what I really have been wanting to hear.I'm very glad for Ernest,he probaly feels a lot of frustations have ended and I'm just real glad for him.Playing is so much more fun when you enjoy your own playing.Now he can put his heart and soul in his music as I'm sure you want him to.
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

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