Steel Guitar Jazz...Jazz or Progressive Jazz?

Dave A. Burley · From: Franklin, In. USA

Is the jazz that we hear today on the steel guitar, jazz or progressive jazz?
To me, progressive jazz is a genre that only musicians can really understand....Joe Pass, taking you way out in space and chosing his own time to let you know where he was really at.
Howard Roberts, George Barnes, George Benson, Pat Martino, Tal Farlow and so on.
I've heard these boys get so far out, losing any sight of the melody and the time of the day or year, it seemed. It so great, though, when they bring you back after taking you on that great musical trip.
I've heard many steel guitarists play great jazz, but, is there anyone of them that plays progressive jazz? The kind of jazz that is being composed by the player for only that moment and will never be duplicated again.
Jimmy Bryant used to get so far out that you would have sworn that he was popping a lot of things that he shouldn't have been, but, the rush was just so great when he would bring you back.
I would sit in awe of his command of the neck of the guitar and the great chord and lead combinations that seemed impossible to play.
There never was a dull moment with Jimmy.
He would take the simplest of songs and, without warning, throw in something that would bring you out of your
seat as if you were being shot out of a cannon.
I would also sit in awe of the great chords of Curly Chalker and Maurice Anderson. The great leads of Buddy Emmons and Doug Jerningan but are these great players playing jazz or progressive jazz?
Thanks for any input......
Dave A. Burley

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Dave, are you calling Atonal jazz progressive jazz? Atonal kinda ignores a chord progression and uses i.e. a tone row (row of notes) to improvise with. I have wondered why non of the really good pedal steel players haven't put out a "current cool jazz, elevater jazz" type album yet, that I have heard anywhere on the radio? Steel would add a fresh voice to that syle of jazz I would think.

Dave A. Burley · From: Franklin, In. USA

Jesse,
I'm not really sure what I am looking for.
Atonal jazz? Jazz without a chord progression?
No, I am looking for a knock your socks off progressive jazz that is played in old standards such as, Foggy Day, Perdido and the such.
I too, wonder why an album has not been recorded featuring the steel guitar in a very progressive mode or a steel guitar album, such as you mentioned, featuring the qualities to be accepted as 'elevator music.'
Dave Burley

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Dave,
You're not talking about what the horn players call progressive jazz.

Much of the newer jazz is actually a fusion of blues, rock, and jazz.

A good example of what I believe you're looking for would best be found by listening to Doug Jernigan. The two albums on the following page are excellent http://www.b0b.com/products/dougjernigan.html

Bob Taillefer from Canada also has some good jazz renditions on his CD, as does Jim Cohen (and MANY others).

If you listen to Buddy's 'Steel Guitar Jazz' and then listen to most of the jazz tunes steel players have recorded since, few are newer than the ones Buddy recorded long ago. The Martino stuff ('Great Stream') Buddy did was one exception, and Paul Franklin has a pretty hip (for the time) fusion-flavored album called 'Play by Play'.

Jazz is a very broad term, but if you're refining the definition to only include 'standards', you're leaving out most of the really way out stuff. You'll occasionally hear steel players do a decent job on a bebop tune, but most don't even approach the heavy duty, horn-dominated stuff. You may want to listen to the Jack West stuff (in the Forum catalog) to hear what David Phillips (west coast steel player) contributes to that music. It's really interesting stuff. BUT IT AIN'T THE STANDARDS. I personally wouldn't put 'Standards' and 'Progressive' in the same sentence. Some may consider some of the Susan Alcorn compositions jazz, but, like I mentioned before, it's a very broad category.

Late 1800s -
New Orleans/Dixieland
St.Louis/Ragtime
Urban and Country Blues

1930s-40s
Swing/Big Band
Ellington
Benny Goodman

1940s-50s
Bebop
Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Lester Young
then 'Cool Jazz'

1960s -
Fusion
Chic Corea
Herbie Hancock
Weather Report
Avant Garde
John Coltrane
Ornette Coleman

To my ear, most everything that's been done since then is either (1) an homage to the styles of the past or (2) an attempt to go 'further out' than anyone ever has. If you've listened to Ornette and 'Trane, you'll realize there ain't much further to go and still call it music.

All, of course, IMHO.

Hope this helps you find what you're looking for.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

I don't know, it sounds to me like Dave is talking about jazz constructed around regular changes, but in which players appear to take the melody/chords "out" during solos.

For example, take Sonny Rollins' solo on "Strode Rode." Right after the head he goes through a brilliant solo with only the bass, (if I recall correctly). Then he comes back in with the band right exactly at the start of another chorus.

Now, to the person on the street it may sound "out" or "atonal", but if you count the bars and pay attention to the changes, his timing is perfect and he hits enough of the right notes to imply the changes. All they're doing is playing loose with the changes.

Make no mistake, the timing is right on the money, but the harmony/melody/accents are played with and stretched. Playing loose with it gives it the tension that makes it interesting.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I have an album by Chick Corea and Gary Burton called "Crystal Silence" that is probably modern jazz (of some sort), but it just defies what I think of as "Jazz" music. Oh yeah, there's beautiful passages, brilliant flurries and arpeggios, harmony and counterpoint like you've never heard. But it's almost devoid of a sense of rhythm (to me, anyway) which I thought was essential to jazz.

It's really hard to put into words, but it's just not the kind of music you can sit and "tap your foot to". These guys are two jazz greats, but they must be playing in another dimension, or on another plane that only jazz afficianodos can comprehend. I sure appreciate their ability, but I sometimes wonder how many listeners really appreciate this type of music. I know it's used a lot in movie scores (where the tempo follows the action, and has a lot of tempo/time signature changes), but I seldom hear it on the radio.

I suspect that Jeff Lampert and Bob Hoffner might be able to comprehend it, but it's 'way above my head!

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