| Author |
Topic: Spruce or Cedar top for Weissenborn?? |
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2003 12:04 pm |
|
I am wanting to buy a Superior Hawaiian guitar (Weissenborn copy). They just got a new shipment in from Mexico. I had decided on a spruce top but it appears that the new shipment is all cedar tops. I would like some opinion on the difference in the two woods. I plan to put a couple of pickups on it. A Sunrise magnetic in the sound hole and a Baggs I-Beam under the bridge. There is no way that I have access to guitars with the two different tops so I could sure use some help.
Erv |
|
|
|
Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 19 Aug 2003 1:17 pm
|
|
I've played the cedar, spruce, and "select" spruce models in the store. The cedar was "warmer" but a tad muddy when strumming hard across all the strings. The select spruce was "colder" but clean sounding even when really digging in--and MAYBE a fraction louder. The regular spruce was pretty much exactly in the middle, and was my favorite. A little bit more warmth than the select, and a little bit more clarity than the cedar.
I've heard that it's a good idea to try a bunch of them and pick the best one, but I tried several and found them to be pretty consistent, so I don't think I'd worry about that.
To get some idea of the difference in tone, you could probably just go to a guitar store and try out some regular flat-top guitars with spruce and cedar tops. It won't tell you what the Superiors sound like, but you should hear the difference between spruce and cedar generally.
-Travis
P.S. Your tab arrived the other day and I've really enjoyed it (as usual). Thanks again.[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 19 August 2003 at 02:19 PM.] |
|
|
|
Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2003 2:38 pm
|
|
Erv:
I have one with the spruce top. I compared it to a lot of the others (spruce and cedar)in the store at the time I bought it, and liked it better than the spruce by far. It has better note definition and is louder.
I think you made the right choice. |
|
|
|
Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2003 5:13 pm
|
|
Bill:
I'm guessing from your post that you also preferred spruce to cedar.
I've owned both -- although not at the same time -- and I'd be hard pressed to describe any difference. Sitting down in the store with a half-dozen guitars is really the way to do it ... [This message was edited by Russ Young on 19 August 2003 at 06:22 PM.] |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2003 5:30 pm
|
|
| Mine is the Select Spruce ... very nice. |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 6:05 am
|
|
The select spruce is really the way I want to go but I don't know if that is available. My heart is set on the fancy abalone model with the select spruce top. Are you all happy with your Superiors?
Erv |
|
|
|
Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 6:22 am
|
|
I've been very happy with both of mine -- a spruce top with the fancy abalone (the rosette inlay was done very, very well) and my current rope-bound cedar.
I do wish George would change the shape of the nut -- those pointed corners that stick out seem vulnerable, although I haven't chipped them yet. I have "stabbed" myself a couple of times, though. |
|
|
|
Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 6:43 am
|
|
"Are you all happy with your Superiors?"
I'm very happy with mine (which actually is Russ's old with spruce top), I would guess it's hard to find a better weiss copy at that price. But then again, if you pay a couple of hundred extra dollars and can wait 6-9 months, Neil Russell of Celtic Cross Instruments in Canada makes some killer weissenborns.
Anyway,back to the Superior - the two things that I dislike about it is the finish (not very strong) and the very wide string spacing. I measured mine to 70mm at the bridge, while the norm is 60-62mm, and this made it hard to make a magnetic pickup work properly. So I ended up with having a new bridge and nut made for mine.
|
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 8:10 am
|
|
I'll take a look at what Neil Russell has to offer. Maybe with the difference in the exchange rate, there wouldn't be much price difference.
Russ, why did you exchange your spruce model for the cedar? Just curious.
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 20 August 2003 at 09:13 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 10:34 am
|
|
I had the nut "wings" filed down on my Superior spruce top, rope binding model. I also changed out the plastic saddle for one made of steel that my repairman made (using the old one as the template). This makes the guitar louder and more "zingy" sounding. I recommend this mod. Bill Hardin (Bear Creek) recommended using a piece of bicycle spoke for the saddle!
Bill
PS I agree with the downsides - finish is fragile, and string spacing is a bit too wide. |
|
|
|
Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 4:11 pm
|
|
Erv:
It's probably not the answer you were looking for, but I switched from spruce to cedar top for two reasons:
1) I sold my spruce-top to Steinar because I wasn't playing it much ... but began to miss it before it arrived in Norway;
2) When I decided to buy a replacement, George at Berkeley Music offered me the cedar-top at an unbeatable price!
I would love to own a vintage Weissenborn, a Bear Creek, a Yanuziello or a Neil Russell, but the Superior is a great value. |
|
|
|
oj hicks
From:
Springville, AL
|
Posted 20 Aug 2003 9:01 pm
|
|
A couple of years ago I purchased a Mid-line classical guitar from a highly respected classical guitar shop (Canadian cedar top and solid rosewood back and sides). I inquired about the difference between Canadian cedar and Select spruce and was told that cedar pretty much has the tone that it will always have when it is new, whereas the spruce will mellow out more over the years...so what you have immediately in the spruce is not what you will eventually end up with. Conversly, what you have in the Canadian cedar is about what you will always have in tonal value. I believe the Flamingo artists mostly go for the spruce...a little brighter...whereas the classical artists of noteriety seem to choose Canadian cedar.
I understand...an acoustic dobro or Hawaiian guitar is not the same desired sound (or is it?) as a classical guitar. But I just thought this info might help.
oj hicks |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 6:13 am
|
|
Thanks for all your help!
Russ,
If you had the choice, with no difference in price, would you take the cedar or spruce?
I notice that they have even been trying to sell some models on e-bay with no takers at a 20% discount.
Erv |
|
|
|
Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 6:24 am
|
|
Erv: I have a feeling that I would go for the spruce, probably based on some of what I've read here. But the answer might be different if I had A/B'ed the two guitars.
Although I don't buy them for the colors, I have received a lot of favorable comments about the somewhat unique combination of cedar and mahogany with the rope binding ... as if a Weissenborn-style guitar isn't unique enough. |
|
|
|
Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 6:53 am
|
|
The guitar Neil Russell is making for me is in all-mahogany, I'm curious as to how it will sound compared to the spruce/mahogany combination of the Superior.
He claims mahogany is superior to the koa usually found in vintage weissenborns (it's also much cheaper), and from what I've heard his guitars has a very well balanced sound.
Judging from the sound Steve Dawson ("Zubot and Dawson") gets from his Russell made guitars, I really have something to look forward to. |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 8:31 am
|
|
I'm not really a big fan of the rope binding. I think Superior made some fancy models with the abalone sound hole and abalone binding. That really is the guitar I'd like to have.
Erv |
|
|
|
Mike D
From:
Phx, Az
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 9:20 am
|
|
Steinar, I think you'll be very happy with Mahogany. It and Koa are very similar sounding, but many builders think Koa can be hit or miss tonally, while Mahogany tends to be more consistant.
I have a quilted Mahogany back/side set and both Alaskan Yellow Cedar and flamed Redwood tops I want to use on a Weissenborn. I just can't decide so keep up the comments folks, it's very helpful. |
|
|
|
Chuck Fisher
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 11:36 am
|
|
Hi
I think spruce is better, I have a brand new Superior with the select spruce top and very pretty rose inlays that I must sell, I need a dobro and I cant afford both, It was a grand and a hundred for the case.
Contact me if your interested, I'd take 850 and shipping, I'm in CA
All best
Chuck |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 1:53 pm
|
|
Chuck,
I'd maybe take you up on that offer but I would like one with the squared off fretboard by the sound hole as I plan to put a Sunrise pickup on it.
Thanks,
Erv |
|
|
|
Chuck Fisher
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 21 Aug 2003 2:32 pm
|
|
Hi Erv,
Yes it has the florentine end, although you could place the sunrise on the other side of the hole, or get a different magnetic PU
I assume you want that Lindly electric sound, Anyway its on the Superior website, marked 1025 and I was told the luthier only made 4 with the inlay, Its pretty and I had my guy level the string slots as the setup wasnt level and buzzed a bit, not now though. I agree that the pointy tits on the edge of the Nut should be filed off, but I havent dome that. That was a Lindly idea according to Berkely-Superior.
All best,
CF |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 25 Aug 2003 5:59 am
|
|
Well guys,
I bit the bullet and bought one of the new Superiors that George with Berkeley music got in. It has the cedar (hope I won't be sorry) top with the plain binding and the abalone rosette. It has the natural finish and really looks good on the web site. If you pull up the web site, www.berkeleymusic.com it is serial number 080303. I already got the Airborne shipment notification.
Erv |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 25 Aug 2003 3:09 pm
|
|
The sound of various tonewoods is one of the most subjective of all areas of guitar building. Many factors influence the ultimate sound of a given instrument including how fast the tree grew, how the wood was cut, dried and stored, the skill of the luthier, and how long the instrument has been played and in what physical environment (Hawaii or Arizona?) In general, Mahogany is warm sounding. Add a Spruce top and you get a bit more sparkle and definition. Koa is kind of in the middle between Rosewood and Mahogany. Some people feel that straight grained Koa offers a louder initial tone with a quick decay while the curlier variety can be initially quiter but offer more sustain. In the hands of a fine luthier, most any tonewood will sound pretty good. It's only that rare guitar that sounds amazing and that's usually due to an ideal combo of the the factors I mentioned above. Re Neil's guitars, he seeks an even tone across the range of his guitars.
Lastly, I've found that certain guitars seem to resonate better in one tuning than another. My all-Koa Bear Creek, for instance, really blooms in open D. [This message was edited by Andy Volk on 25 August 2003 at 05:38 PM.] |
|
|
|
Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
|
Posted 25 Aug 2003 3:32 pm
|
|
"Lastly, I've found that certain guitars seem to resonoate better in one tuning than another. My all-Koa Bear Creek, for instance, really blooms in open D."
Funny you should mention that, my Superior definitely sounds best in lowbass G.
Problem is, I prefer to play in open D..... |
|
|
|
Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 26 Aug 2003 2:17 pm
|
|
Thanks, Andy. You said it well.
And doesn't it figure? Steinar prefers to play in Open D, but his spruce-top -- "The Guitar Formerly Known as Mine" -- sounds best in low-bass G, while my cedar-top really shines in Open D. (I was going to suggest an exchange, Steinar. But as we know the US Post Office and Nordic Post would screw the whole thing up.)
As a fellow cedar owner, I'm eagerly awaiting your reactions, Erv ... |
|
|
|
Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 26 Aug 2003 3:17 pm
|
|
As an aside--I completely agree that guitars will tend to send best in a certain tuning. But, I played a Weissenborn style 2 once in a store which shocked me by sounding good in EVERY tuning I could think of. I've never played a new guitar that was like that, but I guess if you play a guitar for 75 years it's bound to start to sound good...
-Travis |
|
|
|
