Tunings: 135135 vs 151351

Terry Goodman · Post by **Terry Goodman** » 4 Aug 2003 3:10 pm

Hello everybody.

I am a long time guitar player (30+ years) and have been playing dobro (open G, 135135) now for about 2 years. I have a Rick black/white bakelite and am starting to get more into it. I have been playing in open G. I'm not into swing and play mostly old rock/blues. I've messed around with open E and D (151351) but keep coming back to the open G tuning. The fact that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string in G tuning is the same as standard guitar tuning really gives me an anchor when I play.

Now the question. Am I missing anything by not learning 151351 or can I do pretty much anything I want with the G tuning? Thanks.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 4 Aug 2003 4:14 pm

I've slowly 'converted' from the open G to the open D on my acoustic steels, but I still keep one in G just in case....
I find it very convenient to have the root on the first string, and there's also some harmony slants on the first and third strings that I've become 'addicted' to.
Anyway,- I'm no good at explaining theory, but I think Pete Grant makes a pretty good argument for the 151351 tuning here: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/002730.html

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 4 Aug 2003 10:42 pm

As usual with this kind of thing, it's not a question of "missing" something so much as a question of being able to do different things. I tend towards 151351--particularly open D, just because I like it better for solo playing. Your root is a lower string and gives you more bass. If you're thumping away on the sixth and fourth strings to give yourself a bass line, you've still got three strings left for melody stuff, including one which is the root.

I think that people who tend to play solo more often like Kelly Joe Phelps, David Lindley or Ben Harper tend to prefer the open D. Lindley only uses open G on his seven string where he has an extra low G on the bottom (1515135).

On the other hand (

), Bob Brozman--who also plays mostly solo--tends to favor an open G shape. He says he likes the "grace note" you get by sliding up to the root at the fifth fret on the sixth string. He also says he likes having the interval of a minor third on top, which makes sense when you hear him play (lots of triplet runs using the top two strings, and lots of old-timey blues licks). It should be said though, that he too has a seven string with a low G on the bottom.

More old blues tunes than not used an open G shape (515135), and if that's what you're playing then there's no real reason to change (witness Brozman). But seeing as how the tunings are so close, I have to recommend using both. And also try open C (151513--my current favorite, especially tuned down to B on my twelve string

).

Hope I've given you enough info to make your decision that much harder. After all, that's what this forum is good for...

-Travis

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 5 Aug 2003 6:41 am

This is why I just ordered a 7-string reso. 1351351 !

Harry Williams · Post by **Harry Williams** » 5 Aug 2003 2:36 pm

One thing I love about the open E 151351 tuning is the fact that it has a lot in common with the Universal Pedal Steel. Check this out - on my new Carter S-12, from the bottom string I have 513519351379. The bottom 5 strings are identical to the top 5 strings on the lap steel, albeit an octave lower. Then I on strings 8,6,5,4 & 3 the pattern repeats itself. 9 strings out of 12 have a common string on my lap steel. This makes the learning curve much steeper. All you gotta do is just start playing the PSG like a lap steel and see how the pedals replace the the slants. So Terry, use open E 151351 if you think you might ever play an S-12!!

The lap steel and the PSG - two fantastic instruments!

------------------
[This message was edited by Harry Williams on 05 August 2003 at 04:03 PM.]

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 5 Aug 2003 4:11 pm

I use a tuning that is basically G, but more like Keith Richards' tuning -- 15135, then I add a C on the top. This gives me open G without the low 3 (which I would skip over anyway), a low, resonant tonic for a bass string, and the ability to fake a pedal steel kind of sound without pulling the second string.

I actually came up with this one so I could come close to some Sonny Landreth licks, where he frets behind his bottleneck. It's also useful for playing Rolling Stones tunes, which hasn't come up all that often, but you never know...

I also find that I spend a lot of time playing in the key of D using this tuning, and it works well for me. I guess it all comes down to the sound you want to hear and where you are most at home finding the notes and chords. Too many years playing the banjo, I suppose.

BTW, David Hamburger plays Dobro in straight open G, but often plays in the keys of D and E without a capo.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 5 Aug 2003 5:16 pm

That's an interesting tuning, Peter. I have often contemplated how to achieve Sonny Landreth style licks on steel guitar. It's sort of doable on pedal steel, but I've never found a way aside from really quick bar movement and some delay to do it on lap steel.

Could you describe in more detail how you use that tuning to fake Sonny Landreth style licks?

-Travis

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 6 Aug 2003 6:40 am

Maybe its time for a double neck?
~~W.C.~~

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 6 Aug 2003 5:42 pm

Hey, Travis -- the tuning works out to GDGBDC (low to high), which gives me all the notes I need for power chords and for faking minor chords. Plus, the C note means I can keep doing double stops, which is part of the sound.

To play a song like Sonny's "Back to Bayou Teche", I'll barre the 12 fret and play this (pardon my ASCII):

<pre>
1_______________12______________12______
2___12 12 12 12 12 12- ___12 12 12 12-__
3___12 12 12 12 __ 12- ___12 12 __ 12-__
4______________________ 12______________
5_______________________________________
6_______________________________________
</pre>
Then just move the first part of that lick to the 7th fret. By hitting the 2nd or 3rd string harder when doing the double-stop, I can emphasize one tone over the other.

For the start of the break in this song, I get close (I wish) to his lick by playing :
<pre>
1_____________12_______12______________
2__12- 12- 12__________________________
3________________12________12-10_______
4___________________12____________12___
5______________________________________
6______________________________________
</pre>

This pattern also has a bit of a pedal steel sound, which I throw into other tunes.

Of course, Sonny is able to put a lot more into all of this, since he can switch from fret to barre in the middle of any phrase. I saw him live recently, hoping to cop some ideas. Not possible -- he's incredible.

The tuning also works for Keith Richards-type suspended chords when you pick the 1st and 2nd strings together, then the 2nd and 3rd.

Hope I haven't confused things for you. Let me know if I can be more clear.

Regards,
Peter

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 7 Aug 2003 12:37 pm

The 151351 tuning for me blows the 135135 out of the water. As mentioned before, you have the 1 on the top. You also have sixths on the first and third strings that are either straight or a one-fret slant. To get the same notes from the other tuning you use single and double slants -- not my favorite thing to do.

Vamping on a chord in rock or blues you don't want a 3 in the chord like there is in the other tuning. You want a 151, which also helps you fake a minor chord.

Having a low D or E extends the overall range of the instrument and dobros handle E's and D's very well. I used to use a 151351 tuning in G, but found that -- even though it was nice and bright on the top end -- I wasn't taking advantage of the full sound range of the instrument. Also, I couldn't match bass notes with a guitar, so that if I were backing a guitarist, I couldn't provide the lower notes that they would back me up with, especially in the keys of E and D.

I use D. I love it. Works great for Celtic and Bluegrass and Country and Rock and Blues and so on.

Pete Grant www.petegrant.com

Harry Williams · Post by **Harry Williams** » 7 Aug 2003 1:24 pm

I'm in total agreement with Pete Grant. And I've put the biggest strings possible on my Supro E 151351 - from .18 to .64 to get great tone and sustain. They never break and I never change 'em. Too lazy.

------------------
[This message was edited by Harry Williams on 07 August 2003 at 02:26 PM.]

Walter Glockler · Post by **Walter Glockler** » 8 Aug 2003 7:43 am

Harry, what strings are between .18 abd .64

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Aug 2003 8:29 am

I like the idea of Shot Jackson's 7-string E tuning, which was 1351351.

The 7-string G6 dobro tuning is also very cool: 1356135. It gives you all the bluegrass stuff, plus old-timey western swing.

I've always been frustrated by 6 string tunings. C6 (135613) is the only one I don't feel really limited on.

I understand that Keith Richards plays slide guitar with only 5 strings. I think the tuning is in G (15135). It's done by lowering the 1st and 5th string of the standard guitar tuning, and removing the 6th string entirely.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 10 Aug 2003 11:31 pm

Actually, b0b, I'm not sure that Keith R plays much slide in that tuning... It's the tuning he uses for a large part of his regular, fingered playing. Add a couple of fingers - one on the 1st fret of his B string, for a C, one on the 2nd fret of the lower D string, for an E - bounce those fingers up and down, get the rhythm going with right hand strumming, and voilà, instant Rolling Stones, a la "Brown Sugar", etc...
I like to combine the two 7-string tunings you mention, giving low to high 13561351. It gives a wide range of possibilities.
Nick

Terry Goodman · Post by **Terry Goodman** » 15 Aug 2003 4:23 am

Thanks for all the responses. For now I'm keeping the lap in G because I play it out in a club with some friends and I'm still more comfortable with G. But maybe not for long. I have an Oahu acoustic square neck tuned to open D (151351) and I'm starting to really like that tuning!

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 15 Aug 2003 7:03 am

Johnny winter I believe is only using open D on his firebird at his concerts anymore, tho he recorded alot of great songs in low bass open G over the years.

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 18 Aug 2003 10:02 am

Terry,
When you said you don't really play that much swing stuff, I assume you where hinting at 6th tunings. I find that while a 6th tuning lends itself to that, it is well worth messing with if you have more than one guitar laying around.

I personally would save the 135135 and 151351 for a Gibson or Supro, to get that bluesy growl.I would put that Rickenbacker with C#EGACE. Minors, sevenths, and sixes all under your fingertips.

But that's just if it was MY guitar, so I'll shut up now.

Chris Scruggs