Classical music

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Who of you does listen to Classical music, now and then, or a lot?
If so, what are your favourite composers/ pieces. Does it influence your approach to the steelguitar?
Curious mind...

JJ

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

As most of you know, I've recorded a couple of CD's of classical music, (West Side Story is considered both classical and pop music,) and I'm currently working on a third.

I think classical music is both harder and much more interesting than country. For example, in the prologue to West Side Story, at one point there is a 7 note bass line played over 8 beats. You play it 1234 5671 / 2345 6712 / 3456 7123 / 4567 1234 etc. The result is that the downbeat falls on a different note every time, which changes the chord.

The Stravinsky piece I did on my first CD, much of the music is played simultaniously in the keys of F and B natural, with weird harmonies resulting from the interactions of the sounds of the 2 different keys. The first thing the steel plays in this piece is a simple mashing of the A and B pedals, but the bar is also moved up one fret when the pedals are down. Try it. You'll see how unsusual and mysterious it sounds.

On the piece I just finished, there is a section where the different orchestral instruments are playing the same notes, but in 2 different rhythms. It's sort of controlled chaos.In order to be able to record this, I had to program the click track with one click going at 16 beats per measure and the other one at 12, and record them on 2 different tracks and then play back each one seperately in order to play along with them.

This stuff is really challenging, and in my opinion, far more musically rewarding than playing country or rock.

Doing gigs is fun and there is something to be said for getting our in front of an audience and making the singer sound good, but for me at least, doing these recordings is far more fulfilling. I feel I've really accomplished something.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 02 December 2002 at 09:42 AM.]

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

All the music that's ever touched me has influenced my approach to steel guitar.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I'm especially fond of Brahms and Saint-Saens...and also like Devorak, DeBussy, and Rimsky-Korsakov.

I think that Saint-Saens "The Swan"(Adagio) is one of the most elegantly simple, and most beautiful pieces of music ever written.

(Guess this means I'm thrown of the Forum, huh?)

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I mostly listen to classical music. In string quartets I listen for the viola part. Its role in the music is the role I try to fill as a steel player. Listen to any of the late Beethoven string quartets and try to follow the viola part. Its amazing how it blends in and out and takes on so many functions.

I do the same thing when I listen to Ellington. I try to figure out what the trombones are doing.

When I listen to symphonic music I try to understand how the instruments that have the same overtone relationships as the steel fit in to the orchestration. French horn, the double reeds, piccolo (just like steel harmonics !)and all that.

Bob

Bill Fulbright · From: Atlanta, GA

Debussy, Samuel Barber, Brahms, Bartok, Tchaikowsky, Copeland, Britten, Ravel, Gershwin, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff.

So much to hear... so little time.

I love the lush moving inner harmonies. I am sure that is what attracts me to pedal steel, and those who have mastered that aspect of playing. Arranging internal movements is so cool.

Steel lends itself to this because of all the voices (strings) available, and, well, I guess I could go on and on, but...then y'all already know all that!!

Plus there are the great Jazz players and composers as well... what a list!!

[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 02 December 2002 at 10:22 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Just about all of the famous & not-so-famous
classical composers get me all lathered up. Certainly all them mentioned here so far have raised many a goosebump on my eardrums.
Also all the "classics" and "folk" derived classics from other non-european(western) oriented composers are a big turn on. Japanese, Indian, Balinese, Balkan...etc. etc.

The very first time I sat down at a pedal steel, I was listening to (and trying to emulate...with only a little luck) a hip quartal sounding string quartet by Keith Jarrett. That will forever stand out in my mind as a defining moment in my personal quest to explore all the possiblities of this thing. Of course after playing "All My Ex's" etc. over 10,000 times in the years following, I sorta forget.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 02 December 2002 at 11:07 AM.]

Rob van Duuren · From: The Netherlands

Chopin, cello&violin suites by Bach, stringquartets/Beethoven.
Johan: what are your favorites?

Hey Donny, if you like The Swan and steel,
check www.xs4all.nl/~robfvd/Robspage.html
rob.

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

At these days?
Grieg and Satie,but in every artperiod is a lot I like!

some Satie:
http://music.mpr.org/features/0003_satie/rafiles/satie_gymnopedie_28.ram

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Click on the pic!

[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 04 December 2002 at 07:23 AM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I've been working up the beautiful uplifting lullaby "Dreaming" from "Scenes from Childhood" by Robert Shumann. I basically just copped the string quartet arrangement off one of my daughter's CDs and it lays real nice on my universal tuning.It takes both feet on the pedals in a couple of spots and although I wouldn't say it's super difficult,I'll say this - the cello parts couldn't happen if I wasn't playing a 12 string.Other tunes of the same nature I've tried have also needed 12 strings to get the low parts in the correct octave. There's just something COMPLETE in the range of a 12 string for this kind of stuff.
-MJ-

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I listen to a lot of classical music. My main interest starts around the 12th century with Perotin and Leonin, drops off in the middle of the 18th, with the death of Bach and picks up again in the 20th century with Debussey (I know, he wrote in the 19th, but he was the beginning of the 20th). In all of these periods, I think the most interesting times are when one form ends and another begins. Like the end of the Renaissance and the beginning of the Baroque, where one form has reached its peak, Palestrina, and there is no where left to go. So there is the icy coldness of perfection and the heat and energy of a new form beginning.

There are too many composers and pieces to list. Does it influence my approach to the steel guitar? My initial interest in the steel guitar was its ability to transition from one chord to another with a smooth flow (no other non-electronic instrument does this) as well as the ability to play lyrical single and double lines. So I was looking at it from a 'choral' perspective instead of a twang fest. I actually came to love country music after getting one, I disliked it before.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I started, besides the "Nate Wilson Easy Pickin' Fun Strummin' Banjo Method" that came with my 1963 Silvertone, with Classical Guitar.

I think besides tuning me in to counterpoint, different time signatures, and usage signatures, ( Con Moto, Mezzo Forte, Ad Libitum, etc), it allowed me to learn how to play with "feel". Aslo how, as with my brief time with Mr Charleton, to attack each individual note as if ones' life depended on it, and how to milk the longest possible sustain without a buzz or other glitch.

I got to meet and shake hands with Andres Segovia, Montoya, and a couple others. I might add that Mr Segovia's Hands were kind of like Paul Bunyan's. Huge. Now THERE's a picker that "Paid his Dues".

With me, I will be found listening to the Classical Stations, Jazz, and to the "Oldies Station" whenever they have a good Led Zeppelin or Jimi Hendrix Rock Block.

I've worked out Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, Bouret ( which has a tag similar to Nr Emmons' "At E's) and a couple other little ditties.

Doesn't seem like there' a lot of call for them in the Local Truck Stop or in the Critter Club Curcuit tho.

If I ever take up another instrument, it will be Cello.

Gordon Borland · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

One day in the studio I was thinking about a Chopin Nocturne that I like to play on the piano and wondered what the modulation in the peice would sound like on the steel.
It goes from a C to a Ab7th to C# to A7th
to a D7th to a G7th which then resolves back to the Cmajor. The fiddler, (Regina Mathews)whose project it is, heard the modulation and wrote it into one of her new fiddle tunes. She said I even get co-writer credit. I hope Chopins kin folk dont get wind of it!

MSA D10, NASHVILLE 400, PEAVEY ADDAVERB AND SOME CORDS AND A BATTERY.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I listen to a lot of classical. I mostly like modern music, but I'm a big fan of Bach and Mozart too.

I don't think it affects my steel playing much. I listen to classical music for pleasure. I've never really figured out how it works.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I listen to a lot of 'classical' music, but have never studied it (being a lousy reader and having the pedal steel being my first instrument also has influenced my lack of serious study). Just a few of my favorites are:

Gregorian chants
other 'early' music
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven string quartets and piano pieces
Schubert lieder
Debussey
Bartok

Some of my not so favorites are 19th century symphonic works, maybe because of over exposure. I'm not crazy about any of the 19th Century Russion composers, nor any of those virtuoso piano works (anything by Chopin or Rachmaninoff or their ilk). I don't know why. I can't listen to Copeland, maybe because of those years of bad movie and TV soundtrack Copeland ripoffs......

In term s of the steel, there are a bunch of works I would love to play. I recently had the opportunity to play the Schubert Lieder 'Der Doppelganger' on the steel in a concert. But I was asked to do a kind of a Brian May treatment on it, so that doesn't really count. I'm going to be performing a dozen or more classical pieces in the next year, but only because there's an orchestra here in Seattle with a director who loves the pedal steel. I'm a lucky guy.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

This thread will not be complete without a mention of Marshal Hall's groundbreakng Classical Steel Guitar LP although it's probably no longer available,

Hall, who plays a Bb 6 twelve string tuning (NOT a universal) recorded some absolutely amazing stuff. The whole LP was done live, with no overdubs. Unfortunately, some of it is out of tune, and Hall's intonation isn't always perfect. But on those selections where he is on, he is absolutely incredible. I think his version Chopin's Nocturne is one of the finest and most beautiful recordings ever made on a pedal steel guitar. Ever.

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

This is a great topic. My favourite is W.A.Mozart, argueably the best of all the "Classical" composers. He never wrote a bad piece of music even from a very early age. He was the complete package as a composer, technically brilliant, yet even now the non-musical can appreciate his timeless music. Dont forget that in his time he was a "POP" musician writing for the masses. No popularity no pay! Of course there have been many other notable composers through the last 4or 5 centuries whose work has retained popularity and above all musical respect into modern times, and why? Because they put their heart and soul into their music, a timeless virtue, which has been
all but rendered obsolete by the nameless, faceless record company executives of modern times. This is what makes traditional country music so special. On the face of it so simple yet so difficult to do well. Same with Steel-Guitar, keep it simple, just try to make good "MUSIC."

Bill Fall · From: Richmond, NH, USA

What? No Wagner fans?

Dave Van Allen · From: Souderton, PA , US , Earth

not a big Wagner fan, but I did do a synth treament of the opening of Das Rhingold for a college class...

I llisten to Bach, Dvorak (I worked up a solo steel arr. of part of the 'Largo" from New World Symph) Beethoven (Fur Elise works great on steel) Barber...Brahms chamber music... classical guitar pieces.
I particularly like orchestral harp pieces some of which I have on CD.I may not know the names but I know what I like

I inherited a large CD collection from my dad who was very into operatic performances, Pavarotti, other individuals. For some reason as much as I love a good song and a good singer I find much of these hard to listen to.

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Very cool topic indeed. I've been checking out Bach, Griffes and Shostakovich alot, Bach's "Kunst der Fugue" and the Goldberg Variations are just amazing a lifetime of listening in either one. Only problem I find is that it can be hard to go from listening to virtuoso players at their best to some of my drunken colleagues, well, not at their best in the bars. The volume thing is another issue, classical players tend not to confuse volume with expression the way so many in the rock/country/pop world do. Or maybe as my lady has been accusing me of late, I am turning into a curmudgeon.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I'm a huge Steve Reich fan. I think that the impact of his minimalism is so profound in today's culture that we forget that it has classical roots.

I never get tired of Bach and Mozart. I have read that Bach's music went undiscovered for nearly a hundred years after his death. He was incredibly prolific, and often had a second job playing in bars (sound familiar?). It makes me wonder if there are similar undiscovered geniuses in the world today.

The first time I heard Ravel, I was totally floored. It was like I had never heard an orchestra before. I was in my early 20's. You get used to thinking that music with certain instruments will sound a certain way (sound familiar?), and I always thought of the orchestra as "Beethoven's instrument". Ravel destroyed those preconceptions.

Then Mike Perlowin destroyed my preconceptions of how Ravel should sound.

Music is an infinite study. You cannot run out of things to learn about music. Just when you think you have a handle on it, someone will open another door in front of you.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

David Doggett · Posted 3 Dec 2002 12:32 pm

Wow, so many closet classical steelers! My first instrument was classical piano through grammar school and jr. high. Then I played sax in the school band, and we played alot of Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Bach, etc, and some more obscure stuff like Borodin (and I played in a rockabilly band on the side). Then on my own I learned guitar and played folk, blues, and slide guitar. That led to Dobro and pedal steel.

b0b, anyone who can understand the chord structure and theory behind pedal steel would have an easy time with most classical music theory. It's the same I, IV, V, with the VI minor, II minor, and the occassional II and III7 thrown in - only they call it tonic, subdominant, dominant, relative minor, etc. Any guitar player, and especially a steel player, uses more chord and theory knowledge while playing than anyone in a symphony orchestra, except the conductor and maybe a pianist. Classical musicians play the written notes, with little or no need for knowledge of the theory behind what they are playing (but of course professionals have learned theory in their training). Most classical musicians can't improvise diddly, unless they have gone outside their training to learn it on their own. Composers are different. They think in theory, and can know what progressions will sound like even before they are played.

My classical background definitely comes through on steel on ballads and the slow pretty stuff. On my own time I play a lot of classical stuff on pedal steel. It works great on the harmonic pretty stuff from the Baroque through the Classical periods; i.e., Bach, Vivaldi, Pacabel, and on through Mozart (heavenly), Beethoven (the ultimate profundity) and Brahms (boring rehash of Beethoven). The fairly standard major and minor chord progressions work well with the E9 tuning, although you really need an extended E9.

From Wagner (think Star Wars soundtrack), Tchaikovsky, Chopin, and Rachimaninoff (the most melancholy music ever) on it gets very complicated and difficult for steel. From Stravinsky on it is dang near impossible. I was amazed that Mike Perlowin started out with Stravinsky and the more modern composers. I love that stuff, and he did a great job. But the earlier, prettier stuff works so much easier and sounds so great on a pedal steel. You can play most of the themes straight out, without the need for overdubbing and piecework.

Bach hymns are fantastic on pedal steel (Oh Sacred Head Now Wounded, Now Thank We All Our God). If you play them solo you can get a really organ-like sound by skipping every other note of the chord; e.g. C,E, low G, for C chord with C on top. These pieces are slow and stately and will do wonders for your ear, tone and sustain.

The adagio middle movements of Mozart and Beethoven sonatas and concertos have some great themes for pedal steel. One of my favorites is the middle movement of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto in A (that's the piece Robert Redford played on the phonograph for the baboon in Out of Africa).

The biggest problem with playing classical music on steel is the inability to read music (I can read on piano and sax, but not on any kind of guitar). Country, rock and blues are built around short verses that repeat, with short bridges and turn-arounds thrown in. Most classical music consists of long passages with few repeats. Without being able to read, you have to pick out piece and memorize it at the same time. Which is near impossible for long passages. By the time you get to the end, you can't remember what you worked out back at the beginning. I guess it would help if you tabbed it as you went, but it would take forever - and can anyone actually sight read tab in real time on pedal steel?

Considering how much effort and time it takes to learn a single classical piece (Mike perlowin, are you independently wealthy - where'd you get so much time?), the only way I could see doing it would be to work up one piece at a time and record it before starting to learn the next piece. If I ever get one down good enough to record, I'm sure I could never duplicate it again live.

Here's and idea - maybe several of us who like classical music on steel could put together a pedal steel classical CD by contributing one or two cuts each. I don't think I could ever do a whole album by myself in this lifetime (Mike, you're superman).

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

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