Why C-6? An "ego" thing? or?

Raymond Beale · Post by **Raymond Beale** » 23 Oct 2002 1:16 pm

From this self-taught, untrained ear, why C-6. What do the session players use for their bread & butter? What top country songs use C-6?

If you play E-9 and limited C-6, (I play B-6/E-9 S-12) is it worth the time and effort to learn C-6? What's it's advantage?

IMHO it's a "mood" or "style". If I want to hear the melody with clarity, and string pulls, I use the E-9 voicing. If I want deep lower voicing, with chord movement, the C-6 voicing is my choice. I also find single note jamming works best for me B-6 no pedals.

After listening to my home recordings, I discovered that I needed mostly to use E-9 for clarity and to establish the melody, then move into a C-6 mode for the swing sound, just to prove I can play some C-6. I can play the swing style just as easy in the E-9 style, and have a cleaner uncluttered feeling (IMHO).

For ME the B-6/E-9 works great, but a good E-9 player can still get most of the C-6 stuff minus the bass strings, which are lost in the mix anyways.

With the bands of today? Why waste time on the C-6? except for your own enjoyment. I love GOOD C-6 and want to learn more for ME and my EGO!!

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"STEELIN' IN STYLE"
Williams S-12, MSA S-12,
Vegas 400, Evans amp, POD lINE 6. Hilton Digital vol.
Ray Beale Rosenberg,Tx

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 23 Oct 2002 1:28 pm

I like to think of "ego" & "soul" as two different but intertwined parts of who and what I am....same goes for E9 & C6.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 23 Oct 2002 10:17 pm

If I don't know the tune, I usually start on C6, since I'm more comfortable there. Unless it's a straight country tune where the E9 sounds are expected, the C6 tuning covers a lot of territory.

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 23 Oct 2002 10:51 pm

With increased knowlege of the chord possibilities, the E9 doesn't even come close to the C6, even without the bass strings.

Tony Farr · Post by **Tony Farr** » 24 Oct 2002 3:52 am

On the pretty country songs I use the E9, then when we're playing rock a billy or jazz I like to hop over to the C6. I've been told that I play steel where it don't even belong, specially or rock. If I in a band and playing music, I play what ever they play. After 50+ years, I should be able to play just about anything.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 24 Oct 2002 4:12 am

After 50+ years, I should be able to play just about anything

I feel the same way. One of the things I take pride in is my ability to cover a lot of ground. My groups play songs like "I Saw Her Standing There" (Beatles) and Irish folk songs and I never back off. I always try to orchestrate a solo that fits the spirit of the tune. In fact, about two months ago, I was at a jam with some country and rock guitarists, and they broke into a 30 minute version of CSNY's "OHIO" (shows you how old we are!), and there, was needless to say, a lot of jamming with everyone letting loose. I covered my end on C6, and I didn't notice any funny looks, so I'm pretty sure I did well. To me, the art is covering anything, and not using effects to do it, just the two necks of the steel.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 24 Oct 2002 8:41 am

I love, and am actually more comfortable on, the C6 tuning. It's where I naturally gravitate, except on the hard-core country songs which scream for the traditional sound of E9. I understand the chord possibilities of C6, I'm not particularly daunted by the tuning and have no stylistic problem playing whatever on it. Like with Bush, when I'm given more than one solo during a song, I'll frequently play the first solo on E9 and the second solo on the C neck.

But an interesting and quite humorous thing happened the other day when I was playing a gig with Dale Watson. I went to C6 on a particular tune, and Dale said "oh, you're gonna play it on the *two-week* neck." I said "*Two-week* neck?" and he replied "Yeah. Two week notice."

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 24 October 2002 at 09:43 AM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 24 Oct 2002 9:23 am

WEll Herb for someone like me; it's the "Two-week Notice" neck......but for you> I think NOT......you are a Master of the C6 pal....

Ricky

John Knight · Post by **John Knight** » 24 Oct 2002 9:24 am

Why limit one's knowledge. There are not many steel players that are masters of both tunings. They either favor one or the other. I feel as most that the E9th lends itself for certian types of music and sound as does the C6th. The fun begins when you start mixing and matching. Playing a pop standered in the E9th or a country tune on the C6th. Bobbe Seymore cut loose with a Chalker ride on "Your Cheating Heart" last Saturday that just floored me.

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D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&4
S12 Knight 4&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 24 Oct 2002 9:47 am

I'd a probobly died o' bordom by now if it weren't for the 6th tuning and pedal changes.
Definatly and ego thing!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 24 Oct 2002 10:06 am

I think that when people started to use a bow for other things then hunting and putting more strings on it, the whole Ego -thing began

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 24 Oct 2002 10:13 am

Can't beat B6th for single string work, or rock a biily boogie woogie stuff

Dave Burton · Post by **Dave Burton** » 24 Oct 2002 10:17 am

This subject like most in music is very subjective.I feel that there is a definite time and place for both tunings.Rock&Roll for me is beter played on the 6th tuning as is jazz.I play a Universal E9th,B6th and go from one tuning to the other many times in a song.I guess I look at it as not just 2 tunings but many possibilities on one neck.I don't want to start another Univ vesus d10 debate but I have respect for those who play both> Just my 2 cents. Dave

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Oct 2002 11:38 am

I've been thirty years playing E9th, and only about two playing C6.

Sadly, I don't imagine the day will ever come when I'll be more comfortable on the 'C' tuning, but I can't express how bitterly I regret not having started on it earlier - while I love digging around on E9 for those elusive extended chords, there's no comparison with the rich and warm timbre that's to be found on the back neck. Maybe it's the string-gauges - whatever it is, I know it'll keeping me busy hunting chord-voicings for the rest of my days!

(No, it's not an 'ego' thing, 'though maybe it IS an 'ergo' thing....)

PS: I like what one guy told me when I asked him why he didn't play on C6th more - "Every time I flip that switch, a voice sounds in my ear saying, 'Think of your family....'"

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Roger Rettig

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 24 Oct 2002 12:08 pm

Sadly, I don't imagine the day will ever come when I'll be more comfortable on the 'C' tuning

Here comes some unsolicited advice. You want to get comfortable on C6. Do the following for the next 3 months. Except at gigs, do not play anything on E9. Just play C6. When you practice, just play C6. When you play along to a song on the radio or TV, whatever style, including country, just play C6. When you work out a musical idea you hear in your head, do it only on C6. Do not under any condition cop out and play E9, except at gigs. After 3 months, I can virtually guarantee you that you will feel substantially more comfortable on C6 than you do now. Way more.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Oct 2002 12:46 pm

Although I am extremely limited on the C6 neck, due to my own time and practice constraints, when I do move down to the lower neck as Jeff as prescribed, and actually work things through,I am always amazed at the end result and what I do accomplish. IF one views the C6 tuning as "Oh it's Jazz, thats not my style and it would be to difficult for me to learn anything down there" then I believe they would be fundementally missing out on or maybe just missing the whole point. I am not even close to proficient on the lower neck, but like Ricky said, if I had two weeks notice and actually spent the time I believe I could at minimum cut the gig. Now whether I would get hired back, well that may be a different story ! Bottom line, I don't see it as an ego thing but rather another neck on the steel with a different tuning.

TP[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 October 2002 at 05:47 PM.]

B Bailey Brown · Post by **B Bailey Brown** » 24 Oct 2002 3:51 pm

I think the Herbster said it well! I have always been more comfortable on the C6th neck, especially when I first started playing. I am not sure why, but it was easier for me to hear, and play “things” on that neck. As I sat on more bandstands, in different situations and got more experience having to play E9th, because that what was called for, that became easier as well.

After many years of struggling with the instrument as a whole I became comfortable playing on either neck. I think it just comes down to what “sound” you think fits best with what the rest of the group is laying down, and “how” is the best way to add something to it. It is really a judgment call on the player’s part. I love the “two week notice” line! Make sure you can make the right call on “what” sound should be laid down…or you will have a singer/front man in your face! (Been there…done that!)

I once heard a great line by some famous Nashville player. It was, “The E9th neck is the Bread and Butter neck…the C neck is the FUN neck!” I can’t remember who said it, but I would agree with it!

B. Bailey Brown

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 24 Oct 2002 8:13 pm

Jeff Lampert-Your are so knowledgable about the steel guitar and music, and your posts show it.

Playing the guitar and steel , I have always been comfortable on E6. You and I both know that anything can be played on the sixth tuning.

"Tennesee Waltz", "Faded Love", or "How high the moon" or "All the things you are",or "Your cheating Heart".

But even Curly had to learn E9 to survive. And I'll have to agree with some of the other posters, it is the "money" neck and that is for sure.

Back in the 60's I played everything but E9. I played with a country band, 1968 for two weeks 6 nights a week and the front man told me," Al you are a good musician , but you aint country." I got fired!

Real country was just getting popular with the E9, so I got a PP Emmons D10, (I always played a single neck E6).

Played it just the way it came E9 on top neck and C6 on bottom, and learned E9 and hardly ever played the C6 neck. Imagine that.

I did get to play "Misty", "Nightlife" and "Make the world go away" on C6.

Herb-I heard you play on the Radio from the convention, and you played "On the Alamo". You know your way around C6, you had a lot of driving punch in that song, and a great tone.

The first time I heard that song was when Alvino Rey played it on E6 in 1939. That is a great swinging tune.

I guess you are right, the C6 neck is the fun neck and "two week notice" neck and the E9 is the "Money" keep your job neck..al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 24 October 2002 at 09:22 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 24 Oct 2002 9:21 pm

Music is music.
-John

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 24 Oct 2002 10:30 pm

Here's my take.

I, and myself included, think that the problem a lot of E9'ers have is this.

You can play almost any "E9"
song on the C6th neck.

So what? When I have gone thru the motions of learning a song I already know on the E9 neck.......and now have done the same on the C6 neck.......WELL........it really still sounds like E9.

In other words, ONE has to have that "jazz"
state-of-mind to turn a straight-up E9 style song into something way beyond. But I only mean "way beyond" in a sense that if you don't get-it with the "jazz"/"swing" style,
then you have missed, by a long shot, the essence of the difference between these 2 tunings.

I think they are really worlds apart......the whole idea of the C6 concept is that, it is DIFFERENT, from the E9.

Why, Why, Why? Why would anyone want to haul around a doubleneck pedal steel guitar with 2 different tunings, only to realize and accept that you can play, and sound just as "great", interchangeably, on BOTH necks???????????????????????????

And gals, please take no offense, but - HHHHEEEELLLLLLOOOO!!!!!

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 24 October 2002 at 11:44 PM.]

Harry Hess · Post by **Harry Hess** » 24 Oct 2002 10:49 pm

Stop thinking of it as a seperate guitar. It would be like only learning to play the top half of a piano.

HH

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 25 Oct 2002 1:33 am

i started out on a Maverick and got to enjoy E9 as my introduction to Steelin'
When i got my first (+ only) D10, i did'nt know nuthin' bout C6.
that was a couple of years ago.
Well now, i find that C6 is the hippest !
and like many above i find myself playin' C6 first + then takin' it to E9.
i guess it does matter what kind of Musik you feel at ease with.
i've always liked playin'chords and i find that C6 is where it's at.
Since i've got two necks i do play both and try to trade off between them.
Both necks have their specificities and it's always a gas tryin' to exploit them.
But over all i do prefer C6 !

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Steel what?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Oct 2002 5:23 am

To Jeff....

Confining virtually all my practise time to C6th is what I've been doing for the last year - as a result my progress on the 'new' tuning has been satisfactory. When I said that I couldn't foresee a time when I'd be as comfortable on both necks, I was really acknowledging my age (sixty next birthday); I'm not sure I have that much time available to me, but I'll die trying (probably quite literally

)!!!

I do take your point about making that a rigid principal.

When I consider the haphazard way I tackled E9 back in England all those years ago, I realise that I'm probably adopting a far more structured approach to my study of the 'C' neck, and making faster progress, relatively speaking, as a result. On the recent professional gigs I've played (three months on the 'Medora Musical' this Summer, and my recent 'Always - Patsy Cline' in Texas) I made myself commit to the back neck on certain tunes. I soon reached the point where I positively looked forward to it!

Now, when I sit down at my guitar, I'm seeing twenty strings and starting to appreciate all the possibilities that exist therein - 'though, in all honesty, if I found myself in a high-pressure situation, I'm sure I'd retreat to the safety of my E9!!!

Maybe one day I'll find myself 'retreating' to C6th....

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Roger Rettig

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Oct 2002 5:27 am

Well Roger, in that case, I'd just be positive that I'll get to that point of comfort because you're doing the right things. And I think it'll be sooner that you're willing to give yourself credit for. My best. .. Jeff

Peter Dollard · Post by **Peter Dollard** » 25 Oct 2002 5:42 am

I think all of the previous posters have valid viewpoints. I also think concentrating on one tuning can pay great dividends as Lloyd Green has prooved. Even though he was a very good C-6th player he choose to work on the E-9th because of it's commercial value and one cannot argue with his results.Although one can certainly play something like "I Can See Clearly Now" on either neck it certainly sits well on the E-9th to say the least...it is the last steel instrumental to make the top 40 since 1973...Pete