After the recording session

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 17 Oct 2002 10:55 pm

Okay now: you've done a session with Nick Nazel & His Nine Nastey Nose Pickers...and they paid you nothing, zip, zero, natta! Not even parking meter quarters!
Their minimum purchase that includes studio time, master disc, is something like what, 1,000 finished/packaged CD's.
What would you, one of the musicians, expect to have to pay, in order to acquire say 50 or 100 of those CD's for your own amusement? 10 cents ea.; 50 cents ea?;
$1.00 ea. or just HOW MUCH, in round figures?
This CD stuff is an entirely new world of strange sounding words to this old timer.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Oct 2002 7:36 am

Ray, if you're doing it "for free"...then that's what it should be. However, anybody that can afford to do a session, and produce more than 200 copies should be able to pay the musicians that did the session, and give them a complimentary copy...it's only right.

By the way, doing studio "freebies" may make you feel good, but in turn, you're really hurting all the musicians that do this to supplement their income.

My Pappy always told me..."Never give away your living", and I still think it's good advice.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Oct 2002 7:57 am

If I had decided to do it for free I would probably have negotiated a few copies, at least of the tunes I played on. The engineer will often burn me a rough mix on the spot if he has time. It shouldn't cost them much to toss a couple of copies of the finished product your way as well. Did they say thanks?

Anyway, if they're at the 1,000 copies level, they're paying a couple of bucks apiece, plus whatever the studio time and other expenses ran. So if they aren't principled enough just to voluntarily give you any reasonable number of copies for your efforts, if they want to charge you more than $3-4 apiece you're probably paying more than what it cost them.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 18 Oct 2002 8:43 am

Donny Hinson, Your "Pappy" done teached to right! But what did your momma say?

Once played a gig where the only arraingment was that the promoter would "give us a couple hundred or so" depending on how he did at the gate. There were 3000 paying customers at $30 per head. We opened several bands in front of the Gerry Garcia Band. The mandolin player who set up the gig went up to get our pay and came back with "T"s shirts!

I blew a gasket and demanded he go back and told him not to accept less than a couple hundred bucks. He did, and got it.

Ask and ye shall receive.

sgm

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 18 Oct 2002 9:23 am

Thanks fellas for the inside information.

I agree about the "freebie stuff" as I've never been one to do much of that. I've done all the "show casing" I feel I need to do during this lifetime.....played free at state prisons, boys' homes, religious homes, old folks homes, etc. The fact I expect to get paid possibly has kept me from working some in this area as I keep finding out that others here give FREE music lessons, do FREE competitions, etc., etc.

This group "asked" me to play last Xmas and no mention was made about money. I ended up with a scenice river boat cruise, a great meal and $200 for about a 1.5 hour gig.

I felt they'd likely take care of me in a similar manner this time and sorta let it slide. I'm NOT complaining. Some really good things could come of this but I did want to have some experienced insite into this sorta deal.

When I was hinting around about a "free CD" I got kind of a vague response from the wife.
So, to test the water, I inquired about how much she'd charge me for a few; or, a hundred or more of the CD's finished product. Again, I was told she'd have to get in touch with me.

Thanx for the comments. Your responses are truly appreciated.

jlsmith48 · Post by **jlsmith48** » 18 Oct 2002 11:39 am

Does'nt make any difference what the job is!! My first question is " WHAT DOES IT PAY?" Then we can discuss what the "DEAL" is up front. Then there are no questions later!!!! @#$^%@ those freebies!!!!!!

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 18 Oct 2002 12:32 pm

I would rather have the money and a freebie. If you would prefer 50 CDs, I think $150 is plenty.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 18 Oct 2002 6:36 pm

Your comments are appreciated.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 18 Oct 2002 10:17 pm

Fun is fun, but business is business.
I always make sure the arrangement is fairly well defined before entering into it, so that when it's all over, you're not left wondering what's going to happen, with all the unfullfilled expectations.
-John

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Oct 2002 11:05 pm

I was wondering...

No, I think it's a long way rom what it "used to be", just like the other gigs around here.

I've done a lot of stuff for bands on Demos, and when in one of the bands, I put my foot down at "chipping in". Always have. Pictures either. I tell them that If I have to "pay to play", that I must need to go home and practice.

I did a few recordings down at Rex Recording in the 80s, mainly to get the "feel" of "The Studio". I found two things. One, that I didn't like the lack of reverb, and that I had to cover my pedal rack, and that my Sho Bud makes a lot of "frame noise".

I did some stuff for Tenly Holloway and Gary Ogan here that went on a CD, and have done lots of stuff over at Tracy barton's place. I always did it there for "studio time" when I got around to putting down some instrumentals. I was OK with that, tho I never seemed to go and record any..

It's all been for free unless I arranged beforehand to get say, gas money, dinner and 20$. I haven't ever looked at it as "the place I make the money".

The gawd awful amount of time most of these local bands put in getting one friggin song down and mixed is was above what I've thought my time was worth. Even at 5$/hour..

A few years ago i did a Demo for Gary Bennett of BR549 of a lot of his originals, and a couple other things. I traded a couple days' worth of recording in his mom's barn for an anvil case for my Session 500. The whole time I was doing it I wanted to tell him that he'd get "eaten up" in Nashville. He was, and Is the nicest kid I've ever gigged with. Ends up he did pretty well after all. I don't think any of my Fostex 4 track cuts ended up on any of their albums tho..

I was just listening to my old Buzz Martin, The Singing Logger 33s that were done at Ripchord in 63-4. I think it was Gene Breedon's deal. Buddy Gibson and his wife were on it as well as a youthful Steve West ( no relation).

Yep. around here it just doesn't seem to be anymore than a "vanity" thing.

I was just wondering if there are any recordings of Danny Shields around anywhere.

Jubitz 27-31 Oct with Larry's band iff'n youse and the missus get a chance. I'm buying.

Long week paving/ moving equipment.

No Rest for the.....

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EJL63FLH
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'63FLH 90"Stroker
'80 Gold Wing
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
"There are only so many ways to fry cat food."- Buster
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Oct 2002 10:14 am

an anvil case for my Session 500

. . . did the fork lift come with it?????

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 October 2002 at 11:18 AM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 19 Oct 2002 10:33 am

Larry, your comment reminds me of the time Ron Elliott and I were driving to the Dallas steel show and passed a flatbed truck loaded with huge metal pieces and pipes. I looked at Ron and said, "What in the hell is that? Ron in is infinite wisdom and wit replied, "It's probably a Sierra knee lever kit."

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Oct 2002 2:14 pm

Larry:

Gravity. Not just a good Idea. It's The Law.

I decided to haul out the old 500 a couple weeks ago to play a 5 niter at our local truck stop. I Biamped it with the Nashville. I forgot how much I liked biamping, delay/reverbing one amp, and using that phase shifter that was like the old Phase 90s on the other amp. Never could get that "String Effect" to work without the pedal loop, which I didn't like either.

The other thing I forgot was how damn heavy it was. It hadn't been out of the anvil since I got the Nashville 7 years ago. The top for the anvil weighs 40 pounds. Good thing for the casters. I wonder if it's sagging the floor in my basement...

I remember in my younger days, carrying the ProIII in a case in one hand and the 500 in the other with a briefcase sitting on the end.

The Doc told me once that's where I got those little knots on my shins.....

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EJL63FLH
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'63FLH 90"Stroker
'80 Gold Wing
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
"There are only so many ways to fry cat food."- Buster
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 20 Oct 2002 7:31 am

Buddy--That is real funny.........al

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 20 Oct 2002 1:47 pm

Just like John mentioned, making everything clear up-front is a necessity. Even then you still might have to track down the money man after the session (or live gig). They have a way of being involved elsewhere at pay-time (or just like to slow walk the situation). If you are involved in a union situation, the quess work is taken out for the most part (but still no guarantee of getting paid promptly and more often takes around 30-days +/-).

Many of us on the forum have had experience with "Gospel" studio work and probably have had the occassional suggestion ... "..do it for the ministry." Using myself as an example; 'If' I donate my time or otherwise have agreed to perform gratis, then that's fine, but I don't want someone else making that decision for me. Bartering can be ok if there's is something you want or need out of the deal. Then again, cash has a way of working wonders for a players livelyhood.

I've heard the stories of Willie's drummer (Paul English) going to collect money and the promoter (with stacks of cash on his desk) say that he was short and would send a check in the mail. After Paul let one bullet from his pistol fly...(and in the promoter's voice) "100 dollars, 200 dollars, 300 dollars, ..." so on and so forth. Here in Arizona it's legal to carry a non-concelled weapon without a permit. I suspect a strapped on 44 might encourage an otherwise stingy money person to get square (or pull out his 44 and duke it out).

Being a shrewd business person does not mean having to be a jerk (I'm talking about us), but as mentioned above, it is 'business'. If you're in a right-to-work instead of a union situation, print up a simple rate card for yourself. Put down what you think is fair for different situations (the AFM ,<union> has four rates in Nashville). You can be flexible but it can establish a basis, your basis, for fees as opposed to you allowing someone who (after the fact) offers you $20 or $30 for a days' work.

That's my 2 cents...

Mike[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 20 October 2002 at 02:49 PM.]