Critique

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 1 Sep 2002 6:34 pm

I watched most of each set Friday evening in St. Louis.
I saw a lot of slide players who knew how to use a pedal and a lever every so often.
And then I saw Lloyd Green.
When it comes to playing the PEDAL STEEL GUITAR, he was without peer Friday night.
While I didn’t see the Thurs., Sat., or Sun. shows, I listened to a lot of the shows on SteelRadio.com.
Same conclusion.
The ability to use the pedals and levers WITHIN the sustained phrases is the essence of PEDAL steel guitar. Otherwise, it’s just like having a non-pedal guitar w/a bunch of string combinations to choose from.

If Lloyd’s a 10 (and I believe he is) then I would have to rate Buddy at 8.5, John at 8.0, then dwindling on down to the fellow w/the instruction courses and the loud mouth/bad attitude. He could probably sell more courses if he stayed off the stage. My wife turned to me, unprompted, and asked, “Sheesh, who IS this guy?”

And as for tone, I heard fortynineteen steels with the same screechy or boomy sound and one that stood alone; pleasant to the ear and unique: Lloyd Green. Again my wife tugged on my sleeve and said to me, “He sounds so different than everyone else; his tone is so clear and defined.”

What we have here is a Michael Jordan/Tiger Woods phenomenon.
There’s just no competition.

FWIW: yes, Lloyd has been my inspiration for 25+ years and yes, he’s the reason I went to St. Louis this year but honestly, I did NOT show up expecting this kind of ‘no-hitter’ to be pitched.

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 1 Sep 2002 7:44 pm

I got a Lloyd CD just this year where he played his hits he played on, I was blown away, to me just like Marty said, he PLAYED the instrument, little subtle things, unbelievable tone from his Sho Bud, it was nice not to hear another metalic sound (I have 2 p/p's and love em), but if I could get that tone he had, but it was him and knowing how to extract that sound from the Bud, it was like the cabinet of the guitar was resonating, his version of "Sweet Memories" is to die for.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 1 Sep 2002 9:01 pm

Marty......I admire your willingness to state your Obvious Passionate Opinion. I unfortunately did not get to attend or hear much of the convention this year....(somebody get a tape of Lloyd's set???..I'll pay...ah..ha)...but I did get to visit Lloyd at his house for several hours last year and we played that exact guitar you heard. I sounded my way and then Lloyd played and "There it was"...just this most passionate love for the instrument to speak like a voice through song. After getting to talk with Lloyd for hours and then hear him play....It clicked to me just what it is about what you heard.
Lloyd is one of the most sweetest; giving; passionate for and to the instrument, Man I ever met. This "Is" the man....and of course this "Is" what comes out in his Music.
Amen to what you say Marty.
Ricky

Dave Stewart · Post by **Dave Stewart** » 1 Sep 2002 11:07 pm

Marty...

I'd really like to get a copy of Lloyd as well. I'll gladly pay you.

Stew

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Sep 2002 1:38 am

In defense , if you sat up close like on the floor right in front of the players, all of them sounded great , exceptional tone to the bone, but if you sat back left or right from where the sound booth was , which was maybe around 50 feet back, the sound system was a bit edgy on the hi end for pretty much all the players, even Loyd.. I wouldn't dream of rating these guys tone which was pretty much based on a sound engineers knob tweaking. Overall the sound guys did an exceptional job, at any one time they were mixing a dozen or more mics live at the moment as the bands were jamming and trading licks. The only one there that should be rated less than a 10 was me...As well as Loyd being beyond belief, I would offer up the opinion that seeing Buddy, then Doug then Loyd, all on Fri night , on a scale of 1 to 30, we were at 30...
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 02 September 2002 at 08:00 AM.]

Steve England · Post by **Steve England** » 2 Sep 2002 10:01 am

"the fellow w/the instruction courses and the loud mouth/bad attitude. He could probably sell more courses if he stayed off the stage. My wife turned to me, unprompted, and asked, “Sheesh, who IS this guy?”

"And as for tone, I heard fortynineteen steels with the same screechy or boomy sound and one that stood alone"

I agree about Lloyd, he was wonderful. But what constructive point do the other comments in the original post make? Just more mudslinging
thats all.

Please do not encourage this guy
[This message was edited by Steve England on 02 September 2002 at 11:06 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 2 Sep 2002 11:10 am

If Lloyd’s a 10 (and I believe he is) then I would have to rate Buddy at 8.5, John at 8.0, then dwindling on down to the fellow w/the instruction courses and the loud mouth/bad attitude.

The point of this was that he is not that good a player. The other was just an aside regarding his crappy attitude; which I have every right to observe and post. and i aint' the only one...

As for the screechy/boomy comment, that was an observation regarding tone which has every pertinence to the subject at hand.

Hope that answers your concerns, MISTER England. I don't appreciate your referring to me in the third person as 'this guy'. I'm sure you would be interested to note the number of email affirmations I've received on this topic; and not all from little jealous nobodies, either!

As to the TW point, I agree after listening to the video that he's 'getting it' to a degree. He's a lot closer than I am but there's just something missing; hard to put my finger on it. Believe me, I sat in rapt attention last night and will do so many more times, I'm sure.

On another post someone used the old saw, 'well, what would happen if everyone sounded just like Lloyd?'.
Not my point; my point is that the expressiveness of his technique is just not there with any other players I heard. None of this is intended to start a flame war over who's best, but to address the idea that the capabilities of the instrument are (or so it seems) not being exercised and expanded upon.

Like a dead-end branch on an evolutionary tree; we'll all go around him eventually, but we will have lost the most elegant path to the future.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Sep 2002 12:08 pm

I think the whole point of the Convention is to bring all Steelers together . The Steel guitar society in the scheme of things is rather small with a small population of players who for the most part , like me for instance, are just glad to be able to hang out even for a few minutes with the likes of Loyd, Buddy, Doug, Herby, Don, Hal, Tommy, John H., Jeff and the many many more friendships we made while in St Louis. And after all that we actually got to hear them play too. I also got to meet Jim Cohen and Smiley Roberts who also played great sets. If I only saw and met them the whole deal would have been worth it..

All of the players had barely enough time to bring a steel and a seat to the stage, then it was plug in and play, and that is just what they all did. No sound check, no rehearsal,barley a tuning check, just play and don't look back. It was awsome.
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 02 September 2002 at 02:41 PM.]

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 2 Sep 2002 5:39 pm

ditto on the positive strokes for Jim Cohen & the others, esp Herb Steiner...fine job, buddy

.
As to the JW issue..YOU just try getting up there, much less doing all that great comedy & keep your hot chops together...
i just pray that the author of this thread never finds himself in a "head cuttin'contest" with ol'Joe...or maybe i do

Should that ever come to fruition,my advice to him would be: bring yer own sack, pal

On the TW deal, a trip to the ear doc might be in order for you, Marty

. Im not sure what you're not hearing, but I trust MY ears(so do Ray Price & Darrell McCall from time to time), so I believe the problem may lie in what Bobbe likes to call "operator failure"

& I mean this all in the nicest way possible

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 2 Sep 2002 6:09 pm

"head cuttin'contest" with ol'Joe

Well, I'm not sure what a head cuttin' contest consists of or who ol'Joe is, for that matter. Enlighten me and I'll let you know if I think I'm up for it.
If it has anything to do with: playing 5-string b@njo or pedal steel; boxing or wrestling; tennis or chess; troubleshooting a heterogenous network; changing a tranny; executing a charcoal study or a pastel sunset; firing a rifle, pistol or bow; designing and erecting a timberframe; putting up hay or unblocking a straw walker in a JD9600; successfully evading police chases; semi-professional football; raising 6 daughters; or ummm... whatever; then I'll probably give 'em a damn good run fer their money!

As to the TW issue as I addressed it; it would help you to understand my point if you ever got a chance to listen to the LG/TW "An Evening of E9th" video.

If, on the other hand, you've already heard it then it seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle 'black'. Cuz it's obvious who's doin' what. I closed my eyes just to check it out. No question.

And who the he11 is Darrell McCall?
Is he that guy wasting everybody's time Friday night?
If that's what's bandied about as old/classic/trad country then I can see why it's dyin' dude!

Darrell McCall...
gimme a break
sheesh

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 2 Sep 2002 7:25 pm

Gee..........

I kinda liked it!

Sad to hear I'm so misguided......

JB

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Mullen Royal Precision D-10 8 & 5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 2 Sep 2002 8:22 pm

LOL!!!! yer kilin'me Marty

A head cuttin'contest is where one picker gets totally emasculated or de-feminizied(to be PC),by another picker on stage who demonstrates their musical superiority over the party of the first part in front of a group of their peers....or, "who hits the ball further?"...& its one thing to own a set of clubs, but its another thing to know how to use them...'nuff said about that

Additionally, please excuse my typo. I meant JN(as I assumed thats where your finger was pointed) notJW.
(sorry pal,its way past"beer:30"

However,the other comments, I feel, are out of line & totally un-called for, my friend.
I publicly apologize here & now to Darrell for bringing his good name into this. Especially after I hear that he had cancelled or re-booked several of his regular shows to attend the Convention.(insert sad face here)
I always found that mowing the lawn &,what was it? re-building a "tranny"?(not sure on that as I never lived in Sweden),performing brain surgery or whatever, took away from my time spent behind the guitar. Perhaps thats why you do whatever it is that you do(wheres that list again?) & I have my life. (my life? I think I'll keep 'er)

btw, my girlfriend Christy was reading your last post with me & was wondering if youre married? If so, she says that the generosity of some women never fails to amaze her.
Marty, You & I can verbally spar if you like, but I'd give her alotta room if I were you.....takin' cheap shots at ol' Darrell is an offence punishable by a swift & painful retribution back where she comes from......just a word to the wise.
Thats one can of worms that you dont want to open up on here & I assume her feelings are shared by a majority of your fellow forumites. Lets keep it civilized & down to earth here, ok?
As I said earlier..."I mean all of this in the nicest way possible"....
or as Darrell said to Buddy, "do you get it yet?"

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 2 Sep 2002 8:50 pm

Mike: I had promised someone else on the Forum that discretion being the better part of valor, I would refrain from making any comments about this individual. I appreciate you taking him to task but I can no longer sit idly by and not ask for some credentials from this so called authority on everything from steel guitar to humor. He comes on the Forum a month ago according to his profile and proceeds to tell us how things should be according to him. I, for one have never heard of him and doubt if he really knows what a steel guitar is let alone how one should sound. He is apparently unemployed or not proud of what he does and has no musical connections or hobbies he would care to list.

So not only do I not know who he is, I don't know what he is...... He sure sounds as if he is an expert on everything so I'm wondering what he might post in electronic or musical theory. If they are anything like the nonsense he has provided so far on other subjects, I'm looking forward to reading what he has to say in those areas.

Anyone who can say what he has said about JN and still maintain a good standing on this Forum is either a fool or will become one shortly if we give him enough rope. A few years back, someone of perverse persuation came on the Forum in a similar manner and posted trash all over the place. The pictures were as disgusting as some of the remarks I have read by him but b0b is his always efficient manner took care of the problem. Perhaps this will just go away as those pictures did and we can get back to our usually pleasant routines and conversations

From time to time this happens to all of us but I'm sure this too will pass !! And don't bother to e-mail me. I would engage in a battle of wits but I choose not to fight unarmed persons.

Paul J Graupp [This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 02 September 2002 at 09:53 PM.]

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 2 Sep 2002 8:51 pm

I was going to make a comment, but if a person does not know who Darrell MCCall is and would rate Buddy an 8.5 and John that low, I would be wasting my time. Best regards, Jody.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 2 Sep 2002 8:58 pm

I have to say that I agree with Marty's comments about JN. After the degrading slurs and slams he threw at the band during the final set of the convention, he should consider himself lucky that he wasn't left on stage by himself. If I had been backing him up and he had done that to me, I certainly would have walked.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Sep 2002 9:20 pm

A few years back, someone of perverse persuation came on the Forum in a similar manner and posted trash all over the place. The pictures were as disgusting as some of the remarks I have read by him

Paul, I always enjoy our exchanges on the Forum, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think you are referring to someone who posted pornographic pictures on the Forum. You cannot compare that to posting some strong opinions about the convention, no matter how offensive you may find those opinions. It is an unfair comparision.

would rate Buddy an 8.5 and John that low

The ratings have to be taken in context. Marty set Lloyd Green as the standard, and rates him a 10. Based on Marty's standard, he rates the other players. If I read Marty's post correctly, he considers the performances by BE and JH his next two favorites. And I would imagine that an 8-8.5 on his scale is a very high rating. He just feels that Lloyd's performance was that much better.

I'm not taking a position on Marty's post, but the discussion has to be fair and rational.

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 2 Sep 2002 11:02 pm

Good point, Jeff! Also, a cutting contest is an old jazz term and tradition from at least the 1930s. How many choruses of Rhythm could you do before you started to repeat yourself?

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 3 Sep 2002 4:36 am

Jeff and Jim: And anyone else who has a high regard for this Forum..... I value each of your friendships and contributions to the Forum and I accept your viewpoints on this matter.

I tried to show my position as being one of having watched this go on in other sections of the Forum and this was a last straw so to speak. In this case he may have been somewhat correct but all togeather it seems as if he is trying to slam or flame someone and I don't only refer to JN, it looks as if he is trying to take us on as a group and that is what offends me.

I failed to portray the larger picture and did not want to get Off Topic or lost in the words. We have some norms: here and I have grown fond of the flow of topics and discussions. I don't think I have found any one on the Forum that I don't like until this came along and I may have been over protective of that position.

And while I only listened to the ISGC on the internet and don't know what happened on the JN set; I wouldn't condone that sort of conduct either. I have been on the recieving end of such a situation with one Lynn Anderson back in the 60s and it is not nice to say the least.

If I was out of line to some readers then I surely apologize but if one reads the entire thread and knows of some of the other threads I refer to, perhaps my objections will be a little more palatable.

Sincerely, Paul

BobG · Post by **BobG** » 3 Sep 2002 5:41 am

He comes on the Forum a month ago according to his profile and proceeds to tell us how things should be according to him.

I just wanted to interject... Marty has been around alot longer than most of us..trust me on that.
What amazes me is how easily some of us, who should know better, continue to take the bait!
..I feel confident he's getting a big kick out of the responses on this thread.
Just like old times...right Marty?

------------------
Bob Grado, Williams D10 (lefty), Peavey 1000,
Profex ll.

[This message was edited by BobG on 03 September 2002 at 06:42 AM.][This message was edited by BobG on 03 September 2002 at 08:52 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 5:47 am

Disclaimer: the following post contains no considered ‘points’ on the topic at hand; it’s simply a rebuttal of some ignorant remarks directed at me. Please be advised that it is directed specifically at the individuals named herein.

sorry pal,its way past"beer:30"

Well, that’s certainly apparent!
Thank God I gave up alcohol over a year and a half ago; I used to suffer from similar symptoms.

cancelled or re-booked several of his regular shows

What are those VFWs gonna do?

I always found that blah, blah, blah… took away from my time spent behind the guitar.

As opposed to drinking beer? You must be one constipated dude and poor Christy the most neglected woman in the world if the only thing you ever do is sit behind your guitar. She probably doesn’t notice, anyway.

my girlfriend Christy …says that the generosity of some women never fails to amaze her.

Speaking from experience, I assume? Good luck to the both of you, sounds like you were made for each other.

Marty, You & I can verbally spar if you like,

Ummm, no Mike, from what I see, I don’t believe we can…

… takin' cheap shots at ol' Darrell is an offence punishable by a swift & painful retribution back where she comes from

You mean like marrying outside your bloodline? Or toothbrushing, perhaps? But whatever; I know I’m frightened to my marrow; to the very core of my existence!!!

Darrell’s not a very good singer (yeah I know, better than me). If THAT’S what’s supposed to revive real country; we’ve got a LONG wait.

Now for this Paul Graupp fellow:
I can’t believe I’m doing this; as if I give a $^%# what you think! Remember, I’ve never heard of you either, Mr. Smug Fancypants!

not ask for some credentials from this so called authority on everything from steel guitar to humor. He comes on the Forum a month ago according to his profile and proceeds to tell us how things should be according to him.

Credentials? Where are yours to question mine? Yes, I’ve got ‘em. No, I don’t think they’re necessary for me to post my opinion here.

I'm looking forward to reading what he has to say in those areas.

I refrain for your sake Graupp; ever hear the scripture, “cast not your pearls before swine”?

… usually pleasant routines and conversations

This is the most bizarre thing you’ve said yet, Pauly baby!
You should be able to enjoy those ‘pleasant routines and conversations’ soon enough; I understand dementia is a progressive disease.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would engage in a battle of wits but I choose not to fight unarmed persons.
Paul Jackass Graupp <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, and get yourself a new jokebook, Gramps…

As far as the serious points that you made; oh, wait, there WERE none.

Dang Bob, ya got me…
Yes, it’s been fun; but seriously Bob, I really believe what I posted regarding Friday nites show. Sorry ‘bout the topic drift- not my fault.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Sep 2002 6:22 am

Egad!!!![This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 September 2002 at 07:24 AM.]

Teresa White · Post by **Teresa White** » 3 Sep 2002 6:24 am

Marty,

You said, Tommy is "getting it to a degree"? Tommy has always "had it in the highest degree". Tommy is his own player and doesn't need to play like anyone else to be great, he is great on his own, ask any of the real pros.

Tommy loves, respects and admires Lloyd Green. For Gods sake, he even named his son after Lloyd. Sometimes when Tommy plays, you hear shades of Lloyd, sometimes shades of Buddy, sometimes shades of John and others as well. All these players influenced Tommy growing up and he greatly admires all of them.

Tommy most certainly held his own on the E9th video and I'm sure Lloyd would agree. There will never be another Lloyd, Buddy, John, Paul or Tommy, the list goes on. But, there WILL be other great players who also have their on style of playing, who will make their own mark in steel guitar history, just like all the above mentioned, if they are not discouraged by mean spirited, overly opinionated people like yourself. That is what makes the instrument so great and the sound so versatile.

I heard a difference in all the players and their styles of playing and I'm not a musician. I thought Joe Wright was pretty amazing as was Smiley Roberts.

Unlike you, all these guys have one thing in common, aside from being humble and nice, they have all devoted their lives to steel guitar because they love it and that is why it will live on through others no matter how they express themselves through their playing.

You have every right to express how you feel, but I assure you, Tommy DOES "get it".

I believe you purchased one of Tommy's new CDs. If you did and are the least dissapointed in it, please return it and I will give you a full refund plus postage for sending it back.

By the way, Tommy does not know I'm writing this and I'm sure he doesn't mind.
I try to stay out of these discussions as much as possible. I not only love him very much but I admire him for his great musical ability as well. What is amazing, after all that you have said, he would still extend a handshake to you, I'am sure.

Teresa White

David Weaver · Post by **David Weaver** » 3 Sep 2002 6:39 am

Re: Jeff Newman...

1. He put on a great seminar. He was well prepared and organized. He thought it through and delivered a message that was well accepted. I know I couldn't wait to get home and start working on the stuff he presented. He inspired the sell-out room and we enjoyed it. It was a bargain.

2. When he was in the hall and others were playing, he was respectful and listened. He applauded and participated as a recognized member of the audience. Many name players were laughing and joking in the back of the hall while other players were playing. Newman was the only "name player" that I saw applaud other players.

3. Newman supported the progam by playing the awards set.

4. Newman dressed up for his program. Not that you have to any more, but it showed to me that he wanted to pay some respect to the audience by "puttin' on a show".

Newman is a brilliant and accomplished artist. He has opinions and is willing to express them. He has edges and personality. Jeff Newman obviously cares about music and doesn't tolerate sloppyness well. He has taught and continues to coach top players in the business.

There's a saying that says "What is built in a lifetime can be destroyed in a day...build anyway." Jeff is a builder and he works hard at it from everything I can see.

I think he is one of the good guys in the business and he made the trip to St. Louis even better for me by what he said and showed this past weekend.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 6:45 am

HELP, HELP, SPOUSAL ABUSE!!!

Tommy most certainly held his own on the E9th video...

No doubt; I love the video (that's what I purchased BTW) and Tommy did a bang-up job. Just go back and read the original premise a few times and you might see where you got off-track, bless your heart. If I had been able to stay, Tommy's would have been one of the must-see shows for me.

But, if it makes everyone feel better:
Everyone's a lovely player.
No one is better than anyone else. Except of course, ME. EVERYONE'S better than I am.
All tones are pleasing and to be desired.
There are no mistakes, just unexpected note placement.
All steel players (except, again, me) are princely fellows with the best intentions and hearts of gold with never an evil thought or base design.

There we go; all better now?
Group hug!!!
Except, of course, me...

Perry Hansen · Post by **Perry Hansen** » 3 Sep 2002 6:50 am

Bravo, Teresa.