Does age improve guitar sound?

Ted Solesky · Post by **Ted Solesky** » 28 Aug 2002 7:45 pm

Zane Beck was a good friend and I remember him telling me (around 1983) that guitars' tone improve as they age. He said that one of the reasons is how the stain and finish absorb into the wood. He said that it's not good to repaint an old guitar because it can possibly affect it's tone. I know that old classic violins become priceless because of their unique tone. Anyone have other theories on this?

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 28 Aug 2002 8:16 pm

I think you can bank on anything Zane ever said!!
Jerry

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 28 Aug 2002 11:10 pm

Tone schmone!

Carson Leighton · Post by **Carson Leighton** » 29 Aug 2002 3:09 am

I believe it. Also, the wood is aging and I think the vibrations from playing it over the years has an effect on it too. Most acoustic guitars have a better tone after a few years of playing than they did when they were new......Carson

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 29 Aug 2002 3:37 am

"Does age improve guitar sound?"
I think so.[This message was edited by Tommy White on 29 August 2002 at 04:43 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 29 Aug 2002 4:20 am

Acoustic/hollow-bodied instruments? I think so.
Electric/solid-bodied instruments? I think not.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 29 Aug 2002 5:10 am

Go play a Fender re-issue '52 Tele or re-issue '62 Strat, Gibson re-issue Les Paul, or re-issue anything for that matter. They sound good, are made from the exact same blueprints as the originals, same pickup wire, specs, everything. Then play the original. They still sound better. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 29 August 2002 at 06:20 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 29 Aug 2002 5:47 am

yes!!!!

Dennis Manuel · Post by **Dennis Manuel** » 29 Aug 2002 6:21 am

My age has really improved my tone, as far as the guitar, I hope so.

john buffington · Post by **john buffington** » 29 Aug 2002 6:27 am

I was once told by the late Bill Merritt, that the more you play an instrument and as they age, the better they will sound, has something to do with the vibrations and wood make up. He made specific reference to his "dobro" style guitars. I'm lucky enough to have one, also.
John Buffington

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Aug 2002 6:30 am

Probably. Anyone who restores old houses will tell you that wood continues to "harden" as it ages over decades.

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 29 Aug 2002 6:32 am

There's nothing like the tone of
aged formica!!!

------------------
<a href=http://members.localnet.com/~jsganz/Steelin'.mpg>Push/Pull Video Clip</a>

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 29 Aug 2002 6:35 am

re-issue '62 Strat,... Then play the original. They still sound better.

Well, I've done just that. And you're wrong. My father-in-law has a '62 Strat and the music shop where I teach has the reissue. I compared them side-by-side through a Hotrod DeVille. No differences that couldn't be accounted for as the usual tonal variance from one guitar to the next.

Same w/my $300 MEXICAN Tele. I did have to get the frets reradiused and buffed smooth but tonally, it's within reasonable tolerance of my friend's $25K Nocaster through my '72 Super Reverb.

I understand the desire to romanticize those things which may excite a certain nostalgia, but never pretend that fond memories (native or implanted) color the ACTUAL tone.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 29 Aug 2002 6:36 am

Shame, shame Jay!
Jerry

Chuck Norris · Post by **Chuck Norris** » 29 Aug 2002 6:54 am

What about steel`s, on acoustic guitar`s it`s a given as long as they have solid top`s, on electric`s maybe but the pickup`s wear out, bit they also get broke in like a pair of shoes. But what about steel`s, maybe not mica`s but all wood guitar`s, and how about the infamous push-pull could there age have anything to do with the supposed awsome tone,let`s talk about that.
Chuck Norris NFM

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 29 Aug 2002 9:32 am

Only one thing I know for sure... some of the greatest steel sounds in history were recorded on guitars that were new at the time.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 29 Aug 2002 11:02 am

Marty: You say: "Well I've done just that. And you're wrong." "...I understand the desire to romanticize those things which may excite a certain nostalgia, but never pretend that fond memories (native or implanted) color the ACTUAL tone."

Wow, just my saying "the older ones sound better" incited that nasty retort? I see we're not far from each other but I don't remember ever meeting you. You got some kind of personal gripe with me I don't know about? If so, feel free to email me and get it off your chest and let me in on it.

I don't "romanticize" myself into thinking old guitars sound better. I've owned over 200 guitars in the last 30 years. Lots of originals and lots of reissues. Lots of very expensive, beautiful guitars whose tone did nothing for me, and several beat-up, cheap ones that had tones to die for. I don't care what a guitar is, all I care about is its' tone, and in my experience the guitars of the 60's and older have had the tone I consider to be best. Most players tend to agree, but since tone is subjective, I would still not say "YOU'RE WRONG" as you have so blindly stated. You must also consider the conditions under which you test the instruments. If your father-in-law's strat has 5-year-old strings on it and you compared them in your living room, that's not much of a test. The only way to really test a guitars' tone is to set them up with your favorite strings and take them to a gig or two. That is what I do with my guitars and that is how I make my judgement of their tone. On a gig you hear things you can't hear in your living room, garage or music store. You say your Mexican Tele sounds "within reasonable tolerances" to a friends 25K nocaster"? Well, they both sound like Teles, I guess that's good enough for a lot of people. I have a Mexican Strat '62 reissue too, it sounds really good. As good as either of the original '62's I owned? No. No romanticizing here, I'd love for it to beat the pants off the pre-CBS strats. In fact it does, when I run into so many guys with vintage gear who just don't know how to get a tone. I hate it when guys brag about their old stuff and most of them still have a crappy tone, thinking that just because they have vintage gear they must sound great. I'm a big believer in the player is more responsible for the tone being good or bad than the axe. If you can't get a great tone out of an average guitar, you won't get a great tone out of a great one either. But, if the player knows how to get a great tone, in his hands a great guitar will have "that" tone, and the originals do have that something special that the reissues don't. If you can't hear it, great. You'll save yourself a lot of money.

But as they say around here, it's all just my own opinion. You're welcome to yours.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 29 August 2002 at 12:38 PM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 29 Aug 2002 12:12 pm

Ahh- BS. I've been watchin' you posting here for while now and I'm calling you on your insufferable attitude. You don't know anymore than anyone else here and to go parading around all puffed up like the 'god' of high knowledge and arbiter of 'that' tone and/or technique is not only pathetic, but irritating as hell.
You make my case for me in your own post but then proceed to argue the other side; in quite an arrogant fashion.
Figure out what you want to say b4 throwing yer mouth in gear. And then be consistent.
I take all those smart-a$$ sideways comments of yours as personal attacks on my knowledge, experience, taste, etc.
You watch yours and I'll watch mine, okie dokey?

I've owned over 200 guitars in the last 30 years.

Oooo... I know I'm impressed!

If your father-in-law's strat has 5-year-old strings on it...

What?! You think I'm an IDIOT??? I know that!

and you compared them in your living room, that's not much of a test.

But here, you're wrong again; as long as the instruments are compared in the same sound space, it doesn't matter where you are.

The only way to really test a guitars' tone... blah, blah, blah.

The only way?!? Your way; get it straight, pal.

On a gig you hear things you can't hear in your living room, garage or music store.

Yeah, like ambient noise. Duh...

You say your Mexican Tele... blah, blah, blah...I guess that's good enough for a lot of people.

What's that supposed to mean? You know more than I do, perhaps? Smarter, perhaps? More seasoned, perhaps? Or simply more arrogant? Twist that cob a little tighter, Mr. Know-it-all.

If you can't hear it, great. You'll save yourself a lot of money.

Oh, I can hear it alright, bucko.
And what I hear is exactly what I said.

It AIN'T the age (in the case of solid-body electrics), it's the idiosyncratic nature of the construction of these musical instruments.

...all just my own opinion.

Then you might try stating them as such.

You're welcome to yours.

Gosh, I don't know how to thank you, I really don't!
Mighty big of you and all that, Jimbo.

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 29 August 2002 at 01:23 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 29 Aug 2002 12:32 pm

Well, I'm glad it's nothing personal!

There are a lot of beginning steel and guitar players who read these threads and when I post something I try to be as complete and accurate as possible mainly for their benefit. Of course I don't know everything but I do know a couple things they might not. My posts are intended in the spirit of friendly discussion and nothing more.

If my way of writing things such as "if it has 5 year-old strings on it..." insulted you, I apologize. That was just a silly exaggeration and I did not intend for you or anyone to take every word so literally and personally. Thank you for letting me know how you feel, I'll try to be more careful with my wording in the future.

Life is too short, no one needs enemies. Come hear me play sometime, you can laugh at my mistakes and I'll buy you a beer.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 29 August 2002 at 02:37 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 29 Aug 2002 1:35 pm

ATTABOY, Jim. Old guitars can sound better, in the right hands. But you know, I've heard/played'owned some oldies, that stunk. Kinda like new ones. I think we all know how inconsistent quality control was way back when("Wind that pickup bobbin till it's FULL, is what I said"), which led to some interesting mistakes. So there's good old ones, and good new ones.
To qoute the eminently quotable Frank Zappa,"Shut up and play your guitar."

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 29 Aug 2002 2:24 pm

Ok Jim, thanks for the apology and I apologize for the vicious counterattack.

The brass tacks seem to be as Steve said; quality control is (and has been) spotty at best. There's a lot of junk out there and a lot of it is old junk.

I would honestly be surprised if the vintage stuff (again, solid-body) had a signinficantly higher ratio of 'great tone' machines than the newer stuff; allowing for brand name quality and product line placement, viz: custom shop Tele vs. Taiwanese import; and even there, I'm sure there must be exceptions.

AND if there really is a ratio difference, I would probable account for it by the weeding out over time of the less desirable specimens through attrition (this neck on that body, etc., because frankly, I wasn't satisfied w/the 'sound').

And I still stand by my assertion that romance and nostalgia play a part in our perception of a given object and/or sensory experience. I've found myself doing it.
I will say this though, I hate that blasted rosewood fingerboard on my father-in-law's '62.
STICKY- CAN'T BEND- ARGHHH
YUCK!!!

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 29 Aug 2002 2:34 pm

Thanks Marty, I'm really glad we've cleared that up. Actually, I agree with 99% of your last post. There is a certain nostalgic charm with old instruments, that gets a lot of guys. I like that old nostalgic thing too but I'm waay to picky to put that ahead of tone. Then again there's the subjective aspect, who can say what's good tone and what isn't anyway? All I'm really saying is, I've found what I think is good tone in more older gits than new ones. I have had a few new ones that really sounded great too. It would be a dull world if everyone thought alike, wouldn't it?

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 29 August 2002 at 03:48 PM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 30 Aug 2002 9:15 am

I did play classical guitar for a long time.
when I bought a new Hopf, it took about a year to make it sound well.
I didn't play it for 10 years, it came in other hands. When I played it, the sound wasn't there anymore. After playing it again for half a year , the sound, and the way the guitar spoke, came back.
The same works for steelguitars too. It seams that the way you tune and play it, it finds it's way into the guitar and the way it responses. Just my opinion, (from a Dutch fool

)
JJ www.steeljj.com

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 30 Aug 2002 12:01 pm

Seems like I read an article several years ago, where a company on the Left coast was clamping guitars into a multi-megawatt rig, that vibrated the dickens out of it, thus simulating years of "playing-in" vibrations through the guitar. I've also heard of guys sticking guitars in front of their stereo speakers, to attempt the same thing. Apparently, there was a difference in the waveform with that California thing, maybe more emphasis on the even harmonics, out there where the tone lives. Anybody remember this?
Also, have y'all noticed the difference in an old guitar that's been played a lot, and the classic "My-brother-in-law-bought-this-thang-new-in-1956-and-it's-been-under-the-bed-since" axes?

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 30 Aug 2002 8:52 pm

I have a friend who plays lead guitar...
He is eighty four years old and he has T-O-N-E..Maybe the age of the picker has sometinhg to do with it ? I been picking steel for fifty five years.My right hand still stinks but my left is as good as it gets.I grew up on Roy Wiggins and Jerry Byrd..tone don't get much better than that.I put a little ting-a ling in on these young guys and they love it.
Buddy Van
US Steel Pickers .Double ten for everyone.