First time in the studio on steel - need advice

Scott Camara · Post by **Scott Camara** » 11 Dec 2001 1:10 pm

Hello,
I'm in the studio recording a CD and I'm going to playing steel on a few tracks for the first time. It's a big room with lots of natural reverb, which works great for the dobro. I'm playing an old PP-Emmons through a Webb 6-14E, and I'm very happy with my sound. Any suggestions on how to place the mics, and what kind of mic to use? Also, whats the best volume to set the amp on for recording? The guy we are working with said he has never worked with a steel before. Any help would be appreciated.

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Scott Camara
Emmons S10 p/p
McKenna Resophonic
Marrs RGS
ODE Banjo
www.rafterbats.com

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Dec 2001 1:45 pm

Rig sounds like tone to the bone, Scott -- excellent choice.

As usual for recording any instrument amp speaker, I try to avoid placing the mic too close and prefer it to be pointed at the 'meat of the cone' -- about 6-8" off center. Any good mic should be fine -- an SM-57 is ok; a Neumann or large diaphragm mic might be better. Your rig and your technique will generate 95% of the sound. The mic is just the icing on the cake. Whatever the engineer uses to record a clean guitar amp will work fine.

Play loud enough to get the tone you expect out of your amp. Another possibility -- if there are enough tracks to accommodate it -- is to record on two tracks with one through a direct box or preamp like a Pod and the other live through your amp. You can get a spacious sound by panning, mixing, and applying effects to the two sources appropriately.

At the engineer's discretion, he may prefer that you not record reverb or delay (if you planned on using them in the first place) to tape. This allows adding the appropriate effects at mixdown. It's easy to add reverb but impossible to remove it. He can patch in any fx you need for your headphone mix, so you'll hear what you expect, but the recording itself will be dry. Again, this is usually the engineer's decision -- I've done sessions both ways.

Other than that, just smile a lot (it reflects in your playing

) and relax.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 11 December 2001 at 01:52 PM.]

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 11 Dec 2001 2:12 pm

As far mic placement is concerned I've been in situations where the mic is placed right up on the grill cloth of the amp with baffling to keep the steel from bleeding into other mics. This was in the case of playing "live" in the studio with more than one instrument. I've also been in the situation where the mic was placed about 10' in front of the amp. This was in session where I was playing solo in the recording studio and the client and engineer wanted a "room" sound.

As far as volume is concerned you only need enough to obtain full tone from the amp. With a Webb it shouldn't take much volume to reach that level. Ask some of the Webb users. The thing about recording in a studio is: It ain't loud. It's clean and accurate.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Dec 2001 5:06 pm

I have vowed never to record dry to tape again.
I will gladly pass the gig to someone else before I'll fall for that one again.
The best stuff I've recorded has been with engineers who help me to get "my sound" using their high end gear, and recording straight to tape or DAT.
FWIW,
~pb

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Dec 2001 6:32 pm

Scott, if you want to be called again, be very open to what the engineer and the vocalist wants. They have in their mind what they want, and if they didn't think you could do it...they wouldn't have called you. I cut dry through a direct-box 90% of the time. They add what they want, E-Q the way they want, and even suggest the sound or style they want. They don't want a "star". They consider you a "hired hand" (and after all, that's what you are). Be flexible, and "go with the flow", and you'll have more work in the future. Be rigid and demanding, and try to "run the show", and it'll be a long time before they call you again...if ever.

Regardless of what it comes out sounding like, tell them you enjoyed yourself...and you think it came out real good. In other words, you've learned to play steel...now it's time to play politics. Make no negative comments whatsoever. That song, or record, or sound you hate may be their favorite. Be enthusiastic and positive. No one gets paid to be on the Forum, and we can bitch and complain here all we want. But "on the job", it's a different world (that is, if you want to stay on the job).

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Dec 2001 7:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Any good mic should be fine -- an SM-57 is ok; a Neumann or large
diaphragm mic might be better<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For future reference, a small diaphragm cardiod, like the Earthworks QTC1 is a good choice if you don't want to 'color' the sound.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Dec 2001 7:26 pm

If you have a day job, and you (or you and your bandmates) are funding the project, and you want the recording of the steel to come out like what you are hearing in your head, TAKE NO PRISONERS!

You're playing an Emmons P-P through a Webb!!!
Most engineers haven't even heard of these brands.
The producer at my last session asked me if my "Emmons" brand T-shirt was a type of windsurfing equipment!!!

If you are looking to break into a recording gig, then you have to play politics IMHO. (This is something that I will never pursue as I see playing steel live or on someones demo or CD as a recreational hobby, not a career.)

I like producers who know what they want.
I have them sit directly in front of me and put their hands out as if they are playing "air steel" to direct me as to exactly where they want me to play. I have them hum the part over and over untill I get it right.
I've worked with a few guys who are really good at this. I respect their ideas and it makes me feel good to give them what they want. They respect my ideas and expect me to bring ideas to the table with re:effects, tone, ect... mainly because they just plain don't work with steel very often.
But if the guy obviously doesn't have a freakin' clue, I politely bow out of the session and head for the nearest fishin' hole. Life's too short.

Engineers love cool ideas. If you have one, let them know!

There are tons of bands that want steel on demos, and tons of studios... And virtually nobody knows what a steel even is let alone what it should sound like on a recording (my personal expierience only).

As steel players, I have decided it is our job to school engineers in the history of recorded steel music, and most of them are into it! Bring recordings of what you consider a good sounding steel(tone/effects/ect...). This will give them a target.

Again, If you do agree to do exatly what someone wants you to do. Do it! (and hope for the best when you get the finished product.)

Also, my comments above are for steel players ears only (I hope).
I might sound a bit cocky here because I tried it the other way, and have 2 CD's that I played on that I can't stand to listen to because the steel is too dry and not EQ'd to my liking.

I'm really a Fungi!
(insert rimshot here!)

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11 December 2001 at 07:29 PM.]

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 11 Dec 2001 8:09 pm

If the producer doesn't know what you mean when you ask him to play "air steel", tell him it's just like "AIR IRONING".

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 Dec 2001 9:20 pm

Turn off the amp reverb.

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 11 Dec 2001 11:09 pm

Very good advice, Donny. We should always remember that the man who pays the bills makes the rules. Recently I was asked to play a solo on C6 when I could hear some great things on E9. I played the C6 solo and the producer loved it. Best regards, Jody.

Bob Farlow · Post by **Bob Farlow** » 12 Dec 2001 4:39 am

I learned a valuable lesson a few years ago after doing a one-song session. After I did my thing, the songwriter asked me what I thought of the song, and I said I didn't particularly care for it. End of story. End of ME!

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 12 Dec 2001 5:47 am

Most of this is good advice, Scott. I feel most comfortable setting my rig (steel, stool and preamp) up in the control room where I can be in direct contact with the artist, producer and engineer. I find being behind the glass too confining. That's on overdubs of course.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 12 Dec 2001 7:29 am

Make a sound with the amp in the recordingroom you are comfortable with, tone and volume.Tell the tech to put the mike there, the same way he would record a guitar.Then take a longer cable and set up your steel in the control room. Record it and listen back. Then tweek what you need to tweak, and let the engineer tweek what he likes to tweek. Then put down the reverb on your amp, and if you need it, let the engineer add some on the monitors in the control room for listening back. My experience with recording is, the longer I record, the dryer I like to hear it. It makes you work harder and play more in tune. After finishing, listen back on the lowest volume possible. If the steel stands out, it's probably out of tune. Repair that,you can't do that at home, and if it's your own bands produkt, don't go for "we fix it in the mix" That won't happen!!
But it's the producers job to decide what he wants you to play, if if you want to get a next call, it's up to you if you want and are able to respond at his question.
Good luck with it, and please tell us, how it worked out!
JJ

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STEELDAYS 2002
my web-site
my bands CODand TSC

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 12 Dec 2001 10:22 am

In my expierience, most bands are funding the project themselves.
If this is the case... Don't give up creative control of your project!

"...don't go for "we fix it in the mix" That won't happen!!"

That's the best advice yet.

"But it's the producers job to decide what he wants you to play,"

If you are paying for the session, YOU ARE THE PRODUCER!

If you cut it exactly how you like it the first time, that cuts down your expence.
Don't let the engineer waste time(ie:your money) playing with his toys (fixing it in the mix

)

The difference in the amount of delay/'verb on the steel recorded at the time of recording, or applied after the fact, aint gonna make or break the song.

I liken this to an engineer who is really good at tight punch-in's.
Nobody who ever hears the song is gonna say "Wow... that was a really nice punch-in there".

Spend your time/money on getting the vocals right.

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 13 Dec 2001 5:01 am

I agree with Pete...I'd rather get my sound with my effects and record that way. That's assuming it's an engineer who is NOT familiar with recording steel. The problem is, most of the time, we don't get to be in for the mixdown and you have to be at the mercy of the engineeer to add the right amout of reverb and delay, maybe chorus....I don't think so!
Recording dry may be great for the engineer, but it stifles my playing.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 13 Dec 2001 7:23 am

What works best is when the band is comfortable to play, you can hear yourself and you like your sound. The best take is the one with the best feel. You can always go back and make quick fixes on things, especially with the technology that exists today! It's easy to repair a bad note here and there , but you can't insert feeling into a song. And one more thing. You have to realize that your recording is going to sound like your band and not the Nashville A Team.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Dec 2001 7:26 am

Tony,
I'm curious why recording dry would stifle your playing. In studios I've worked in, the engineer would patch in reverb or delay to the headphone mix and I couldn't tell the difference. The 'verb just wasn't recorded to tape. In home recording I've done, I found that I screwed up some really good takes by overdoing the effects and I stopped recording the effects at home too. Like I said before, it's easy to add effects at mixdown; it's impossible to remove them. But that's the engineer's decision.

Scott, the most important advice I've heard is to relax and be comfortable. Minimizing anxiety is the key to a good performance. You didn't mention whether this was a 'band at once' recording or an overdub session, or whether you're a 'hired gun' or are footing the bill for the session. How much politics you factor into your dealings with the studio may determine whether you are asked back -- if you're not paying for the studio time. If you are, it's the studio's job to make you comfortable -- otherwise you and your band won't return to that studio for your next platinum CD.

Good luck -- it's great fun if you understand the rules of the game.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Gary Dillard · Post by **Gary Dillard** » 13 Dec 2001 9:00 am

Set your sound the way YOU want it, put a mic in front of the amp, and pick away. Tell em to run the steel channel flat on the board.

I've done to many sessions were an engineer "thinks" they know the way my steel should sound. Have a good attitude but stand your ground. If they don't like it....either give in, or let em call someone else!

My "two cents" worth.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 13 Dec 2001 9:05 am

This happened almost twenty years ago so I don't know if it's relevent today or not. I was working for a guy in LA who had a studio. He and I used to do all the instruments ourselves on demos etc. One time we recorded a couple of tunes which we thought sounded great but the guy who's session it was came in himself and added some keyboard generated string parts in the background. When we went to mix I noticed that the steel now was out of tune slightly with everything else. I re-recorded my steel parts and everything was fine. I've always tried to do the steel or fiddle last after the fixed tuned instruments since that time. I think that maybe the steel player has to intonate his guitar to the complete sound. I haven't experienced this lately as it's been about 3 years since I've done any studio work on steel, but my last experience I overdubbed on a session which was complete with vocals and everything and it sounded just fine.

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Have a good 'un! JH U-12

Scott Camara · Post by **Scott Camara** » 13 Dec 2001 1:23 pm

Wow, thanks for all the responses folks. I was on the studio last night laying down some dobro tracks. On our last recording, which I have come to really dislike, we recorded almost "live", then went back and overdubbed vocals, solos, etc. This time, we have an incredibly tight rythm section, so they layed down the bass and drums and we are each doing out tracks individually.

Last time, I think we settled for most of the songs, as its hard to record live and have everyone be happy with their performance. This time, I was able to get exactly what I wanted. The owner of the studio has become a good friend of the band, for a while he played drums for us until we found our current drummer. Anyway, although we are funding this ourselves, he is giving us really cheap rates, and we have been working steadily so we can afford to do it right.

The only effect I really use is reverb, so I think I'm going to try and use my normal settings on the Webb and see how it comes out. There was a post (long ago) on Webb amp settings from Tommy White. I tried these settings with my Emmons and its the sound I have always wanted, I couldn't be happier. I just want to make sure that what I hear is what comes out on the CD.

I am waiting for the other guys to lay their tracks on these songs so I can go last and try to fill in any holes, etc.

Maybe I'll throw some MP3s on our website if anyone is interested. I wasn't even planning on using the steel on this CD but I've been practicing alot since I went to the PSGA show in Norwalk.

Thanks again, Scott

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Scott Camara
Emmons S10 p/p
McKenna Resophonic
Marrs RGS
ODE Banjo
www.rafterbats.com

Henry · Post by **Henry** » 13 Dec 2001 2:28 pm

I was a producer in the years 1975 -1985 Jazz aswell C&W and pop ,,,,,and i love(d) to use the steelguitar in the sessions, for me there are musicians how played what the producer like to hear,,,,,and steelers how played what they "FEEL"" for the song ,,,
and i know one steel player overhere (europe) he is and was (retired)the BEST in europe how say(d),,,take it or leave it..."this is me"
After a couple of sessions he did NOT like the studio gigs anymore and he QUIT.
"another story"

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 13 Dec 2001 4:41 pm

Hi Scott, some really great advice here from a lot of guys who have "been through the mill". It does sound from your last post as if it is a band project (as opposed to you being a hired gun) and the engineer is "band friendly", so I would take the tack of trying to get your best sound and performance on tape, even if it means messing around with your amp/ settings and doing multiple takes, etc. It also sounds like you should be able to listen in on the mix, or at least express an opinion, so if you tracked with the reverb/effects you prefer, or left it to the engineer it should still come out ok. There is certainly a danger in recording totally dry if the mixdown engineer has no idea what a good steel recording sounds like. You can usually tell if they have an ear for that kind of thing and then lobby to include at least basic verb or delay on your track so at least it sits well with the reat of the tune. On a session where you're just a hired "overdubbist" I'd say the best path is getting a great sound as quickly as possible, and giving the producer/artist/engineer the sound, style and amount of "licks" they want as quickly and professionally as possible. that can take some doing! Lots of great advice here- but keeping your eyes and ears open and treating everyone with respect and some open-mindedness is great start. As far as your specific session- I played a Webb for years, terrific amp. I remember using the "Hybrid" setting most of the time and often cutting using only the direct out on the back of the amp. You can probably get a great sound blending that with a mic in front of the speaker. As Larry says I'd recommend micing the speaker slightly off center, often a spot at the edge of the dome part of the cone over the voice coil, right where it meets the larger paper cone sounds sweet, and changing the angle of the microphone even slightly creates tonal changes. Many engineers mic amps with a close mic and one or more room mics, the better the room sounds, the better that will work on tape. A great trick that sometimes sounds great on open back cabinets like the Webb is to mic the front of the speaker as above, and then put another mic on the back of the speaker inside the cabnet, and have the enginner reverse or "flip" the phase of one of those mics. That can sound huge. If you have the tracks and are playing a "signature lick" type thing, try double tracking it. Double tracking Dobro can sound amazing, for some reason it gives the Dobro a unique Chorused sound, (check out the Dobro section on "Please come to Boston" on the 'Nashville Bar Association' Cd for a great example) Best of luck. No matter what, the more you get to record, the better you'll get at it!

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Mark van Allen-"Blueground Undergrass" Pedal, Non-Pedal, Lap, and Dobro - c'mon by and visit: www.markvanallen.com

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 13 Dec 2001 5:18 pm

.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 13 December 2001 at 05:19 PM.]

John Egenes · Post by **John Egenes** » 22 Dec 2001 9:21 am

Scott,

I've done lots of session work for many years. I play several instruments, and usually get calls for acoustic stuff (guitar, dobro, mandolin, etc). While I don't consider myself a super-picker on the steel, I have been getting a lot of calls in the last few years to do bread-and-butter stuff on albums, demos, and the like.

Lots of good advice here. One thing I'll add, about steel in particular, is to LISTEN to your track(s) carefully. When you rush through them, especially on steel guitar, you'll find there's a place or two where you've gotten a little "pitchy" (out of tune). You need to go back in and fix these places. DO NOT let them go, to be "fixed" later in the mixing process.

The best advice I can give you is to have fun. Remember that the process is NOT about your solo, or your steel work, it's about the song and the singer. You're there to provide color and ambience, with maybe a solo as icing on the cake.

Oftentimes, upon listening to a rough mix, I'll suggest to the producer/engineer that they might want to dump my part in this particular section to make room for the piano or the rhythm guitar, etc. In other words, the places where you lay out are as important as where you play.

Again, it's not about your part, per se. It's about having fun, and making MUSIC. So, go and do both! Good luck with it all.

John