The Steel Guitar Forum

When I was in school I took a Jazz Techniques class. The teacher made a statement one day that has stuck with me ever since. He made a comment about how funny he thought it was that the jazz school was full of teachers teaching music in a different way then they learned it. He talked about how instead of books, videos, charts or whatever other learning aids you could think of, all he had when he was younger was a turntable and a stack of worn out records. I was thinking about this last night as I was about to practice... "Should I open up my "Patterns for Improvisation" book, or my "Buck Owens" boxed set of cd's." I'm just curious as to what the other forum members think of this.

Thanks,

Todd

Get out the Buck Owens, and the Merl Haggard,and the Conway, etc

Buck Owens was an icon. HOWEVER, you ain't gonna learn jazz listening to him. I'm sure of that.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 August 2001 at 09:40 AM.]</p></FONT>

...my opinion is that I could open up the CD set and memorize a tune...then start from scratch and go through the whole process again for the next tune...and on and on...or I could read the book first, and then listen to the CD so I could quickly work on any tune, building upon what I already learned and knowing where I'm going before I get there...

..give a man a fish, you feed him for a day...teach him to fish, he'll be trying to tell you how to do it...

I guess what I am trying to figure out if there is a difference of opinion when it comes to approaching learning the steel guitar. Obviously there is more learning material out there today then there ever was, but has it made that much of an impact on the quality of steel playing. For example: Is it better for me to sit in front of my stereo for 1 1/2 hours trying to figure out one Mooney steel lick, or am I better served getting the tab and learning the lick that way in a matter of minutes. (Of course at my skill level it would still take 1 hour, but, you get the idea.)

Hi Todd,

I feel the best way to do this is a little of both. Get tabs, listen to what others are playing and learn those licks to improve your dexterity on the steel. Then use your theory to figure out why those notes fit in the lick. If you can do that then you be way ahead in the learning curve.

Regards from Plano

Mark T.

I believe, first of all it depends on the kind of material you want to learn. Hey, Mooney and those guys put a lot of emotion into their playing. They played from the heart, that´s all that really counts. And I don´t see a possible way to put that into tab. BTW, apart from the two books I´ve studied in the beginning - the Winnie Winston book and John Bidasio´s E9th workbook, both of which I find really good - I practically never learned a single tune from tab. The most important thing is to really LOVE the music you want to play (and speaking of Buck Owens and Mooney, I sure do) and if you have a bit of a good ear and the patience to listen really closely, it won´t be that hard to learn. Especially when a song moves you so much emotionally that it brings tears to your eyes - those usually for me are the easiest to figure out. Because that means it doesn´t leave you indifferent and you already have some kind of emotional relationship to it - "This song seems just for me! If I had been around back then, I could have played that part!" And then the rest often just happens by itself. On the other hand, with stuff like complex jazz tunes, I think it wouldn´t hurt to have at least some general background about it, such as knowledge about the chord progressions etc. And of course a VERY good ear and a LOT of patience. For someone like me, who has been playing only straight country and country-rock so far, all that jazz stuff still seems very far out. (Maybe I could even do it if I wasn´t so lazy.)
Good luck, Joe H.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 03 August 2001 at 11:23 AM.]</p></FONT>

Should we all remember that the original players didn't have ANY books to tell them how to play?

I taught myself how to play guitar by listening to records. I'm teaching myself dobro and lap steel by listening to records...for the most part. An instructional video got me started on techniques, but to learn tunings and to manipulate melody? All by ear. Then again, it's taking a long time. but what's my rush?

I know that PSG has a lot more elements involved, of course, but once you get past the "body mechanics," isn't it all about your ears?

...I was just thinking that the title of this topic should probably be "School Vs No School"...I can't think of any school, old or new, that doesn't teach you to know your instrument inside and out, and to know why you're playing what you're playing, and what is going to come next, so that you'll know where to find it without thinking about it...memorizing moves will get you through the songs you know, but it isn't going to help you when they throw you one you don't know, or one you know but haven't practiced yet...I've tried "No School", but never got past the first grade...but as b0b says, your mileage may vary...

Todd, tab is a good tool, and tapes and videos are good too. The only problem with "using a map" (if I may use that analogy) is that you miss all the "quaint little side streets". Some players rely too much on these learning tools, and so they learn very little on their own. Sure, they can play 100 licks that someone's tabbed out for them. But, they can't come up with one original idea of their own. Instead of tab stimulating these players, it just makes them lazy. I've heard many times..."I need someone to tab this out for me!" And sometimes, the stuff they're asking about is so darn simple...I wonder how long they really tried to find it on their own, or how they learned to turn on their amp. (I guess they had to read the manual to do that.)

Now, there's nothing wrong with learning tools (spare me the flames, I know they can help people a lot) Nothing wrong with this, but I've heard many variations of famous rides, intros, etc., that were better than the original! Don't lock yourself into doing something exactly the way someone else did it. Be innovative...take a chance now and then, and try to do something of your very own.

Copying is great---sometimes it'll even get you good marks in school! But...you probably won't learn much if you do it all the time.

Some people seem entranced and envious of a steeler who's got lots of pedals! I would rather hear one with lots of imagination!

I started the drums in 65 with records and that's it. I listened to those records so much I knew exactly where to put the needle to find the lick I was looking for every time. It was time consuming but you need that time at your instrument no matter what. Now if I'd had videos and all the stuff that's out there now I would've learned faster I think. If you love your instrument, you'll take the time you need but why not use everything that's out there? Tab doesn't show emotion but that's what the records and tapes are for so then you've got it all. Some things are hard to hear but the more time you spend at your instrument soon you'll know instantly where the licks are coming from. You won't need the tab then.

Do you need to know theory, harmony and your scales to play your instrument? Everywhere I've ever worked had someone who was a guitar player who was convinced that they were THE CHOSEN ONE who wasn't going to have to learn his scales. And you don't need to know yours, but if you do, it will help you in playing your instrument and understanding how it works and how music is put together, which I think will make you a better player. Yes, there are 'gifted' players, and you might be one of them, but I can't imagine that if you are really serious about music why you wouldn't want to learn and know as much about it as you possibly can.

Learning to play your instrument, and learning about music are two different things, imho. Hopefully, they overlap.
A bit of both, perhaps ?
-John

It all depends what you want to do. When I started there were only a few books-- Scotty's "Sho-Bud" one, and Jeff's early stuff. I got them both-- and sat and listened and when I heard something which I couldn't figure out, I went for THAT piece and got it.
I was always too busy to learn it "note for note"-- I wanted to be able to play what I FELT.
I remember that when I finally saw some tab by Emmons for Danny Boy, it turned me around because it showed me a few other positions I had never considered-- and really helped me grow.
The Weldon Myrick tab I did in the "Elements of Style" showed me a lot about "pick blocking" and got me to do his tunes OK, but I never quite understood how to integrate it into what I heard in my head.
So... the big thing to ME is to get what you want to play in your head, and then learn how to do that.
Years ago I was standing next to banjo player (Jim and Jesse) Allen Shelton at a country music park. We were listening to Bill Keith. Someone said to Shelton, "How you like his playing?" And Shelton said, "well, I sure with I could pplay like that, and then I wouldn't."
It stuck with me.
There are a lot of folks I listen to and wish I can "do that"-- but the one I really like to listen to is me...

Winnie

Todd --- I think the answer is probably a little of both. I have allways said --- If you want to spend time memorizing, memorize the neck !!! I think of the neck from some home position, be it the no pedal position, or A and B pedals down, or any other combination you want to think of. I normally think in Nashville numbers, as related to my home position. I started on 6 string lap steel in 1948 using a E-major tuning and grew slowly thru 8 string and finally to E-9th 10 string. I have allways played the E neck and have no experience on C-6th.
I'v allways joked ---- when I learn all about the E-9th, I might try C-6th !!!!!

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Hey, Moon- why don't your change C6 to E6 then you will get it fine and dandy.....al