The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **30 Jul 2001 9:52 pm**

Yes Larry Miller,I, and every publisher and CD artist, and honest player agree with you on this one! The steel community is very small, we could save a lot of money if we would just print one instructional tape ,or tab, or press just one CD and pass it around.This way all those greedy players wouldn't be ripping us off with those HIGH prices for the stuff they created.Boy, did I understand this correctly or not? Sure , I sell CD's and tapes, but the prouducer, player,distrubuter,publisher and all get their part! The guys that just want a quick cheap deal and don't care about the player will side with you on this deal.
Please tell me of I'm wrong on this,I'd love to be wrong and apoligize on this one.
Is this like a used book exchange? Or is it a buy low ,sell high,rip the player off deal? Just would like to know.
I have several tapes and seven CDs out,with this stuff going on, I might as well just do one of each next time. Tom, I'm just asking you to rethink this one, I'd like to hear from you. Don't disregard Larry Millers point,He has the best intrest of all players at heart. (as do I)
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 July 2001 at 11:12 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 31 July 2001 at 01:27 PM.]

Posted: **30 Jul 2001 10:33 pm**

So why is everyone jumping on Tom? He just voiced a innocent opinion! If we jump on everyone like we just did poor Tom,everyone is going to be afraid to ever post an opinion, lets just thank him for voiceing his opinion and go on. Lets not drive someone off the forum for being honest and expressing the thoughts in their heads. Remember Ole? I thought we'd never get him back. This forum has a lot of mental power and a lot of people take it very seriously. Lets all be careful with each others emotions. I had a terrible "run in" with Tom a while back, said somethings I'm sorry for now.Also found out that he is a great guy with an opinion he likes to express once in a while, We all have one of those, This is just my opinion so jump on!

(Sound familiar, Bobbe?)

Seriously, Tom is aware that his post was not well received, and he asked me to "close or delete it". I chose the former. It's been a long day....

I'm sure that everyone who produces musical products agrees with you, Bobbe. Why don't you issue your products with a "non-transferable license" like software companies do. That will sure cut down on all of the unauthorized copies. (Yeah, right!).

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/coolb0b2.gif">
 -b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
-System Administrator

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 12:07 am**

I just read the closed thread over in Pedal Steel, and on this one I must side with Tom.

Nowhere in that thread is Tom asking for copies of anything. He is simply asking if there is any used material for sale he can purchase. People buy used stuff all the time, including albums, books, guitars, widgets, etc. Even me and my drinking buddy Bobbe Seymour

.

I just sold a used Emmons steel, something I believe you yourself do, Bobbe. Now, if Jim Aycoth called me up and said "hey, I'm in the business of building and selling steel guitars. Why don't I just make one steel guitar and everyone can just pass it around?," would I not be justified in saying "Jim, once you sold it to me, you also sold me the right to resell the instrument to a 3rd party?"

(BTW, Jim Aycoth would never make such a statement. I used a hypothetical situation for example only... so spare the flames)

The opinion Larry stated is correct if we're talking about unauthorized copies. But if the originals are the item in question, Tom is within his rights to ask if there is any used stuff for sale. And yes, used book exchanges are perfectly legal, correct, and okay. And, again, Tom was not asking for copies that I could read.

I personally sell my own albums and instructional courses (here, as a matter of fact

), and I'd love it if every Forumite bought all my stuff. But if someone did buy my material, and didn't like it, couldn't use it, got too advanced for it, or whatever, what right do I have to tell him he MUST hang on to it? IMHO, I have no such right. I did get my bucks when I sold the original, and he now owns the original. He did not buy the right to make copies, but he did buy the right to resell the originals.

That stated, I applaud Larry for his altruistic opinion in support of the steel guitar community and the guys like me who produce this stuff. Yes, it is very challenging to create a product, have it printed, CD's pressed, etc, and then go to steel shows and put up websites to sell this stuff. And we who do it need all the support we can muster up. But in the situation over in Pedal Steel and Buy/Sell, Tom is perfectly reasonable in his request. IMHO.

Now, uh, Tom... if you're interested in some new, original, unused instructional material, maybe I can help you out...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 31 July 2001 at 01:15 AM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 31 July 2001 at 01:25 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 2:50 am**

This is an extremely touchy subject, Tom chose to close his thread, showing me that he quite possibly did rethink his request,if so, I applaud him for that. From here on out let's keep Tom out of this and just debate this topic. Let's hear all points of view, I have stated mine in a previous thread, and I stand by it.! Herb, you are too kind! You have a lot of time and money invested in your instructional materials and you should be compensated with each and every purchase. A very small price to pay for your knowledge and expertise. Larry

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GO TITANS GO!!!
[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 31 July 2001 at 04:21 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 4:04 am**

Once you buy a record, CD, instructional material it is yours to do with whatever you want. You can burn it, shread it etc. What you can not do is make copies and sell those copies for a profit.

I have a few Jeff Newman Courses that I have completed and have decided to keep the material only because it is fun to go back to the courses and I usually pick up a pointer or two.

I have seen alot of used courses offered for sale on the site and this is the first time that I have seen such a negative reaction to someone wanting to get a legitimate course which is second hand.

IMHO, Tom was only making a request for legitimate material; not copied or pirated.

Regards,

Mark T.
[This message was edited by mtulbert on 31 July 2001 at 05:05 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 4:08 am**

I can't believe this. This is America. If someone purchases anything new we have purchased the right to do with the original copy what we wish. No, you cannot reproduce it and sell copies. That is not what he asked. You can sell it or give it to another. I just bought a used Mullen. Should I send Del a check? I just sold a 56 fender3-8, do I send Fender a check? I just bought two used instructional tapes. Do I send Jeff Newman a check? Shouldn't they get their share? Bobbe, didn't you just ask to buy used steels? GET MY POINT?

This forum is here to share information, styles, music and opinions. It is a wonderful resource for steel guitar.

Bobbe, if you really believe what you said then when you go to your store today look around and throw everything used in the dumpster. I respect you very much, but I'm sorry you are just way off base on this.

Close the "Buy & Sell" bOb this politically correct world can no longer handle friends helping friends. [This message was edited by Gary Boyett on 31 July 2001 at 05:25 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 4:52 am**

In general....

The (PSG) folks that resell the tapes,CD's and such have advanced in the field. Now they are trying to go on to higher learning. This means that they are going to purchase more of you guy's tracks,tapes,and other instructional materials. (read this as NEW) I too, have purchased many NEW products from MANY "Pro" and "Dealers" I have a number of tapes and videos that I have considered passing on to others. Now as this is a very expensive hobby and the toys are very,very expensive,I can understand why some of us often are willing to pass along stuff we feel we can do without.

All in all,this dosen't hurt the dealers or pros, As we progress,we will purchase the new stuff !! So,you guys arn't going to go under just because a aspiring player decides to see if there is another player out there that is willin' to sell a tape or such at a price to offset the expenses encurred.

(No flames wanted or needed. Besides that,it's human nature to look for the best value for the buck. All of us do it.)

I don't mean to step on anyone's foot/toe's but that the way real life works. So you guy's (dealers/Pro's) can't really expect this to just go away. It's sorta like the "Napster" thing, Just because they close down "Napster", it dosen't mean there arn't others out there that are willin to step in and pick up the pieces.

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 5:03 am**

It has taken me a while to figure out why many players do not get invloved with this Forum.

Although it has many good features,,,the bad seems to be overtaking the good.

How does this grab ya,,,I got an e mail from a player who commented the following.....
I think he forgets,,,I have been around the block a few times and I know the "real" ones
as opposed to the "fakes" Aloha, Later & all that stuff....
Yeah Jody,,I was at the convention back in 1958 & heard the fender 1000,,,and the tuning setup "SUCKED" did you have anything to do with that????

Is this a pro speaking?? or a guy with no class,,,this thread is another DRAG,,,,,,,,
I agree with Gary Boyett,,, Goodbye again
guys ,,,I'll leave you to the small mind that wrote me that ignorant e mail....

He deserves a break today at McDonalds,,,he plays well,,,but his NO personality and false
compassion fools many,,,but not this guy,,,,,[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 31 July 2001 at 06:05 AM.] I had to "edit" this ,,,I am sittin here listening to Merle Travis remember him?? sure ya do,,,,he is singin this number he wrote,,,,

Ya take a "K and and E an N & a T a U and a C K Y ,,,it spells Kentucky and it means
"Paradise" great tune,,,I thought of a "parody" regarding the "knock off guy" who e mailed me,,,,Here is my version same melody.

Ya take a P and an H an O an a N an E an a
BIG OLE "Y" It spells PHONEY,,,he knows who he is,,,,I wont disclose his name to embarsse
him,,,,my specialty is long posts and "humor" I dont put people "down" as he tried to do to me,

I refuse to lower myself to his level,,,he cannot come "UP TO MINE" so there he shall live with his small mind.

Dont sweat it guy,,,I wont disclose who you are,,,only "my hairdresser" knows for sure.

BTW I think "author" is spelled correct...
who is authur?????? or are my eyes failing me.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 31 July 2001 at 06:42 AM.] I couldn't resist guys,,,I edited again just like the other guy,,,,,,[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 31 July 2001 at 06:46 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 5:12 am**

OK Y'all let's put Tom Bradshaw out of business, just pass all of this info around, recycle it and be done . Tom, been nice knowing you! Bull$hit!! I can remember in 1965 I had a double neck Rick and all I could do was the intro to Looney Tunes, quite well by the way, these teachers unlock so many doors and solve so many mysteries what is the big deal about paying for it. Everybody wants something for nothing, but the prices for these courses are almost that anyway. Larry

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GO TITANS GO!!!

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 5:15 am**

Gary Boyett, I see what your saying,And this is the response I was and am trying to generate.Looks like we all are giving this issue the thought it needs.And by the way, NO,I do not ever sell Used CDs or used teaching materials. If I have an excess of CDs, I destroy them,send them back to the artist,and don't ask for my money back. A lot of you already know this, but thats a diffrent story. AND,like I said,I want to be wrong on this one! Yes,have I ever said that before? NO! Just A good subject to think about, Guess we should thank Tom for bringing it up, NOW we are thinking about it! More to come,just remember,lets all support this forum,the players,dealers,teachers and all that promote and love steel guitar, OR some day there won't be any steel guitar left!
Bobbe

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 5:30 am**

Please Lord, why does it always have to come down to name calling?? We are more intelligent than that... I know we are!!!! Larry[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 31 July 2001 at 06:32 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 5:39 am**

And by the way Gary, if I'm way off base on this,Good, I really do want to be,and I do thankyou for your very intelligent input. You have very elligantly made your point,something I can't say for another poster that has a bad habit of attacking anothers class when he has none of his own and never ever knows what he's talking about.Most of you have made some very good points!I respect this . The tone of this thread can be very high and informitive, or it can be drug to the depths of raw stupidity. I vote for keeping it a high class,informitive discussion without anyone attacking anyone. Now guys,lets show our class and intelligence and give this matter the class it deserves. Thanks Tom,Good subject.
Bobbe

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 8:15 am**

Let me try to understand this (cause I sure don´t): you all are gouching each other´s eyes out over the issue of whether or not it´s legal, legitimate, or ethical to resell used merchandise? You can´t be serious!

The compensation for the originator of ANY tradable goods is paid with the first sale. And it doesn´t matter one bit whether it´s a book, a CD, or an automobil. The notion that an original product should be destroyed rather than resold is strange, at least. Should I set my old car on fire instead of selling it? And bury all the books I´ve read in my back yard?

C´mon - it´s all a hoax - right, Bobbe?

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Remington D 10 8/8, Session 400 LTD

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 8:22 am**

Jody, what is your view on the issue? I respect your opinion and your Fender expertise, but I don't understand why you digress to other issues other than the issue at hand. Sincerely Larry Miller

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GO TITANS GO!!!

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 9:05 am**

What about software? I recently ended a partnership with a guy in a jingle business. He owed me money,so he gave me his Mac G3 loaded with relatively current(and expensive)audio/video software.Now I own the computer and the software on it's hard drive - plus all the original CD roms,manuals,etc,etc. - Right? But when I tried to call tech support and upgrade MY software to the latest version,guess what happened.See,in the mindset of the software business,software is never really bought - it's only leased to the original purchaser.The fact that it resides on a CD or in a manual that you can actually hold in your hand is only incidental to the distribution process.So the question becomes - is there really that much difference between software,music and/or instruction materials or any other intellectual property which is distributed that way? I'm not taking a position - just throwing a question up in the air. To me,it's a real moral grey area.BTW,when I called the manufacturer of the video syncronizer box which I also got in the deal(same manufacturer as the software)and asked to replace a missing manual - you guessed it - no problem. -MJ-

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 9:25 am**

Personally, I would love to receive a royalty for everytime my book is resold used, given away or taken out of the library but it ain't gonna happen. Best I can hope for is that enough people show enough interest to buy new copies of it. BTW, the book has nothing to do with music so I am not trying to garner interest for it here. AFAIK, there is only one other forumite who might have a copy and if he doesn't he should

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 9:52 am**

Just something to think about, the steel guitar community is very small in relation to the book reading world, it has become smaller and more intimate thanks to the internet. IMHO instructional material is not like a car, or a book, you are here on this forum where the great teachers reside, where they see your name, and you are asking others to help cut a throat. Picture this,Hey Buddy you're my steel guitar hero, love ya man! does anyone out there have all of Buddys' tabs and tapes that you're not using anymore, I'd like to buy them cheaper than what Buddy's selling them for on buddyemmons.com. I ain't gonna do it!! I would not condemn those that do, but I would like them to consider the ethics of it, within this small community Sincerely, Larry

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GO TITANS GO!!!
[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 31 July 2001 at 10:57 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 10:14 am**

I decided that what I originally wrote in this reply is a bunch of philosophical BS and I regret muddying the conversation.

Back to the original topic. I can see both sides of this issue. It's not one of legality, but of a personal values choice. Sacrifice our hard-earned bucks for the greater good of the steel community, or give in to the natural human desire to save a little money. We just have to weigh each individual situation presented to us and make a value judgement on an ad hoc basis.[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 31 July 2001 at 12:07 PM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 10:18 am**

I can see both sides of this, and what kind of money are we talking about? $15, $20, $30, you probably piss-away more than that on beer and lottery tickets. Personally I would rather spend that with the original author as a show of support for their efforts. We aren't talking about thousands of $s for cars or guitars here.

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 10:22 am**

See,in the mindset of the software business, software is never really bought - it's only leased to the original purchaser. The fact that it resides on a CD or in a manual that you can actually hold in your hand is only incidental to the distribution process.

It's not just the "mindset", it's the law that software manufacturers use. Steel teachers could do the same thing, if they were concerned about resale. Of course, it means that you have to track all of the purchasers .. er .. licensees, and that's a hassle.

"This course is licensed, not sold." What's the problem with that?

Back to the original question, if I sell a steel to a beginner, and I throw in a used Jeff Newman or Joe Wright or Herby Wallace course to help him get started, am I doing something unethical? According to Larry's logic I am. But I would counter that my "gift" of the course is a way of introducing the student to a great teacher, in the hope that he would go out and buy more courses on his own.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 31 July 2001 at 11:22 AM.]

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 10:43 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Back to the original question, if I sell a steel to a beginner, and I throw in a used Jeff Newman or Joe Wright or Herby
Wallace course to help him get started, am I doing something unethical? According to Larry's logic I am. But I would
counter that my "gift" of the course is a way of introducing the student to a great teacher, in the hope that he would
go out and buy more courses on his own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First of all this is a gift, not a sale and I think it might also fall under 'word of mouth' advertising.

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 10:50 am**

b0b, I would think that would be a gift! But to sell the guitar and sell him or her a used Jeff Newman tape would be different. Larry

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GO TITANS GO!!!

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 11:06 am**

It finally dawned on me that the idea of destroying used instruction material goes back a long time in history. The original owner of the Red Sea scrolls had read them all and thought he couldn´t learn anything more from them. He felt it was unethical to give them away to somebody else, let alone sell them (perish the thought!). So he tore them up in tiny pieces and buried them deep in a cave at Qumran. Too bad that an illiterate Arab youth unearthed them alomst 2000 years later. Now they´re in the Vatican, where they´re as good as buried again. And the new owner sure isn´t thinking about reselling them ...

Posted: **31 Jul 2001 11:28 am**

Herb, you hit the nail on the head! It comes down to a personal value choice, I would side with Chas, in that it would show support for the author. It's not like these courses are hard to find, they are out there.....right here, the authors are living and trying to make a living, and my personal value choice is to show my support. Larry

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GO TITANS GO!!!

The Steel Guitar Forum

Closed at authurs request?

Closed at authurs request?