Player's Longevity

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Jul 2001 5:01 am

A question for those in the know?

Why do stars like Ray Price, ET and others have soo many different players over the yrs? And some of these players only stay with them for a very short time.

Are the stars (generally speaking), temperamental? Are the players? Is it a combination of both?

Or is it just like it is in life in general? I don't know, having never played for a star. But it occurs to me that there is a more excessive turnover in players for given stars, than what one would think is normal.

Any ideas?

carl

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 14 Jul 2001 7:49 am

Carl, it's fairly "normal". Pickers come and go all the time. It's hell to try and keep a band together for a long period. Sometimes the picker gets tired of the road and wants a sit-down gig for a while (and then gets tired of that and goes back on the road). Sometimes a buddy is picking in another band and an opening comes up and they'll move to the other band. Sometimes there will be an opening in a band that's playing a little different music and they'll move on as the repetition picking the same thing in the former band gets old. And, sometimes a picker will get fired.

It's rare that someone stays with a band for a long period. There have been some, such as Norm Hamlet with Merle, but those are the exceptions.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 14 Jul 2001 8:19 am

Carl, Strange as it may seem, ET didn't have that many steel players on the road with him. Most of the almost 50 years he was on the road, he only had about seven players. for eleven years of that, Buddy Charleton played. Dickie Harris and Kemo Head also played a long time with him as did Lynn Owsley. But Jack is right. Sooner or later one gets tired of the same old songs and routines every day.

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 14 Jul 2001 8:22 am

There is a guitar player here named Randy Dorman that has been with Kenny Rogers since 1977. I don't know what the record is but I'd say thats close to being one.

[This message was edited by Earl Erb on 14 July 2001 at 09:23 AM.]

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 14 Jul 2001 8:34 am

How many acts are consistently touring these days? A good road picker may consider his best offer

Richard Bass · Post by **Richard Bass** » 14 Jul 2001 10:42 am

Just a note: I played for Faron Young from 1972 until his death in 1996. Richard

Vern Kendrick · Post by **Vern Kendrick** » 14 Jul 2001 11:13 am

Richard,I think you may hold the world record

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 14 Jul 2001 11:22 am

Well, I've been downsized more than once. Here's the scenario...... New artist starting out has great potential, but not making much money opening shows and playing fairs hires players for cheap with the promise, "As I make more money, you'll make more money". Okay, you make less than 20K the first year, but the second year you get a little raise and a little more work; still day rate. Another year or two down the line you're working more dates at a higher rate, so it's time to go on salary and you work your butt off, but it's decent, steady money. The next year the artist's manager comes to him and says, "You know, if you fire your band and hire new pickers, you'll save this much money.". And artist goes, "Okay".

It may have been different in the 'old days', and there are many artists who still have players that started with them. But there is no security in this game and there are always mercenaries out there trying to squeeze you out. Maybe it's okay for some who have other means of support or who don't mind living in their van. But I have a mortgage and obligations. I'm now retired from the touring game and I have a good day job in a non-musical field. Bitter? Maybe. More disappointed that I can't make a living doing what I love.

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Emmons Push Pull S10 | Peavey Session 400 | '52 Fender Lap Steel | Goodrich L120 & Matchbox

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 14 Jul 2001 1:54 pm

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 May 2002 at 03:13 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 14 Jul 2001 4:04 pm

Good thread. Since I've been in Nashville I've seen numerous benefits and played a bunch for a lot of different pickers whether it be local players like me or road players we'd all heard of. Some guys make good enough money to stay out there but not many. Fifteen years ago I met Billy Byrd of ET fame who was driving No.7 for Yellow cab. He plays a single somewhere close to Knoxville last I heard in an unknown bar. The other day I read where Little Roy Wiggins doesn't have a marker for his grave. I don't want to wind up like that because I hung in there and lost not to mention my family. I wouldn't try it unless we had a contract for at least five years and good luck asking for that. The road is for young unmarried guys/gals that get out in time to still be able to buy a home and get themselves set before they're too old to catch up.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Jul 2001 6:00 pm

Thanks fellows, this has been most enlightening.

I been doing some thinking. Wonder what would happen if, every musician in the country feild tomorrow morning would stand as one "united voice" and say they will NOT play another note, until they get a royalty on every record sold they played on. Plus those musician who don't record get a percentage of every "gate" they play for. (percentages to be worked out later

)

Just wonder what the stars would do with NO musicians. NOT one; until these two matters was cleared up in finality?

God bless you players that give your soul for starvation wages.

carl

ESnow · Post by **ESnow** » 14 Jul 2001 9:52 pm

I would think Norm has the record. He's been with Merle around 36yrs.

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 15 Jul 2001 3:44 am

Mike,
I may have met you back in '72. I was in a band that opened for Faron for a couple of shows. I was just a low life bass player then. Faron was always one of my all time favorites,was a class act(even when he wasn't sober) and ALWAYS had a great professional show ,band, and excelent musicans.He's was one of the old line stars that featured and acknowleged his band and members..Like ET,TO,Mel,and a few others.
one guestion..Why do I have a CD with Faron "Live at Branson" and Stu Basore is playing and feachered on it?

Richard Bass · Post by **Richard Bass** » 15 Jul 2001 5:48 am

Bob, Stu was with Farons band for about 2 years. He was my roomie on the road. What a great player. If I remember correctly we recorded that live album over a three nite stand in Branson directly to a two track machine, no overdubs, what you hear is what you got!! I've often wondered why they had such a large semi to carry that recording equip.Richard

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 15 Jul 2001 6:17 am

Hi Richard,long time no see.

nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 16 Jul 2001 12:04 am

I would guess if you really push it the record for a musician playing with a star would have to be Bobbie Nelson with Willie...

And even if you think that's cheating, Paul English has been with Willie for around 40 years, I think...
Nick

Mike Jones · Post by **Mike Jones** » 16 Jul 2001 7:40 am

I was lucky enough to work with Barbara Mandrell for 23 years, Porkchop & John Hughey was with Twitty a lot longer than that. During my tenure with Mandrell I saw a lot of different players. Many left because of personal problems, some because of a chance for personal advancement, others because of personality conflicts. The reasons are as varied as there are players.

Steel tryin · Post by **Steel tryin** » 16 Jul 2001 12:48 pm

What's the difference between a Steel Player
and a LARGE PIZZA?? The PIZZA can feed a family of 4!!

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 16 Jul 2001 7:55 pm

There a lot records in these bands but Norm Hamlet has been with Hag for over 30 years. I lost count but he started sometime in the 60s. Now that's a record to aspire to, Gary

Bob Hempker · Post by **Bob Hempker** » 17 Jul 2001 8:15 am

I was with Loretta Lynn for 17 years the first time around, and for 6 years the second stint. Our guitar player, Dave Thornhill was with her 28 years. Kenny Lovelace has been with Jerry Lee Lewis since 1965. Bob Wooten was with Johnny Cash since Luther Perkins passed away in 1968. I think Bashful Bro. Oswald was with Roy Acuff for forty some years until Mr. Acuff passed away.

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Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 19 Jul 2001 10:38 am

C'Mon Carl,tell us the truth.Are you looking to go on the road?

Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 19 Jul 2001 11:49 am

Hey guys, Don't forget Blondie Calderone was with Ray Price from 1967 untill his death last October. Mike

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 19 Jul 2001 11:52 am

I forgot my father in law Charlie Collins was with Roy Acuff from 1966 untill Roy's death in November '92. And don't forget Jack Drake with E.T.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 19 Jul 2001 4:22 pm

An interesting thing to remember is that some of these guys got a break from their main gig, and by that I don't mean to lessen the impact, but it helps to have a break, even if it's just part of the tour each year.

John Hughey worked with Conway from 1968 to 1988, and for a while Lou 'Lew' Houston used to temp for him.
Blondie Calderone comes out high in the tally until he sadly passed away.

Norm Hamlet has been with Haggard since 1967, now that's an impressive innings, although I imagine that some of Roy Acuff's crowd lasted longer, Brother Oswald for example.

Kenny Lovelace has been with Jerry Lee Lewis on and on and off basis.
A couple of Memphis cats took the gig, most notably my hero Charlie Freeman who worked with JLL in 1966-1967 and appears on the 'Memphis Beat' album and a live set from around that time.
Even when Kenny wasn't touring he did a lot of studio work with JLL, although I just remembered that James Burton did a stint with JLL in the 1980s after leaving John Denver.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 19 Jul 2001 6:19 pm

To illustrate how a band can change so quickly, while at the same time a picker can stay for years, check out this little bio of the Strangers I whipped up a couple of days ago for an interested party on one of the Western Swing newgroups.

The Strangers formed in mid 1965, with Merle Haggard, Jerry Ward (bass), Fuzzy Owen (steel), Roy Nichols (lead guitar), Bonnie Owens (vocals) and at first no regular drummer.
Peaches Price eventually joined, she had done some one-off gigs with Merle
in 1964 and of course worked with Wynn Stewart's band from 1960-1964.
Jerry was basically a guy who hung around Merle and when he was forming the group took Jerry on as bassist. Fuzzy was viewed as a temporary solution for a steel player, they had no success in convincing Ralph Mooney
or Norm Hamlett to join the group.
They toured through the latter half of 1965, Bonnie didn't always travel with the group, and in some cases got booking in the Northwest, so she'd travel up and do gigs without them.

In late 1965 they brought in Canadian steel player Neil Flanz (Neil had two solo albums out by this point), Neil flew to the US, joined them in Arizona and hardly rehearsed with them before they did a couple of gigs.
At this point they where travelling around in a van driven by Haggard's buddy
Dean Holloway.
Neil was promptly sent on his way for basically not being Ralph Mooney.
Within a few years he was part of the Nashville live band bar touring scene
with Charlie Louvin and many others. He even toured with Gram Parsons in 1973.

By early 1966 Haggard hardly had any gigs and the band all but dissolved. Roy did various bar band gigs, while Peaches left for Texas for three months at a gig that fell through. At this point Merle and Fuzzy picked up a Texas/Arizona tour and on the trip picked up Peaches with Roy, Bonnie, Jerry Ward, etc.
After the tour they hit the studio, Roy sat out the session letting Phil Baugh take the guitar role. This was part of Merle's 1966 album with the Strangers, the 'Swinging Doors' LP.
In 1966 they got themselves on the Buck Owens Roadshow, Peaches was dropped
from the group due to some things I won't go into. In the studio she was briefly replaced by Jimmy Gordon who later worked with
Eric Clapton and did other things that people tend to remember him for, rather than his drum skills.

Norm 'Eddie' Burris was hired on as the permanent drummer in 1966, while
George French Jr. was added on piano that same year alongside Fuzzy Owens, Nichols and Ward. Bonnie constantly toured with the group at this point, which was pretty good as she and Merle also had a duet LP out in 1966.
That year Ralph Mooney was hired into the group, he lasted about seven months and was fired in late 1966. Manager Owens had no choice but to rejoin on steel guitar.

In 1967 Leon 'Chase' Copeland replaced Jerry Ward on bass, then Norm Hamlet joined the group, freeing up Fuzzy to take his managerial duties in hand.

For the next two years Leon Copeland and Jerry Ward alternated on bass, sometimes on sessions Bob Morris filled if they hadn't a bass player at the time. While James Burton and Red Simpson where often brought in to augment the sessions.

Merle left the Buck Owens Roadshow in 1968 and formed his own roadshow that year.
By early 1969 Copeland was trying a solo career and Ward was with the Strangers for their 1969 instrumental album.
Gene Price (bass, vocals) replaced Copeland by the time of the albums
release, in mid '69 he switched to rhythm guitar and Dennis Hromek joined on bass and vocals.
Around this time George French stared to work less with the group.

In late 1969 Biff Adam replaced Eddie Burris.
By early 1970 the Strangers where Haggard, Biff Adam, Norm Hamlet, Roy Nichols and Bobby Wayne (Edrington) on guitar and vocals. Bobby had replaced Gene Price while George French returned to the Bakersfield club scene.

Sure the band changed a lot over the years, Bobby Wayne and Dennis Hromek were fired in 1973, although both where rehired many years later. Roy lasted with the group until 1987, Biff had to retire in 1999 due to ill health, while Norm is still with the group.