The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 1:49 pm**

I vote .... Serendipity

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 March 2003 at 07:23 AM.]

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 1:51 pm**

Jeff
To answer your question regarding the Fender
treble syndrome. This is something people have asked me for years and this is the answer I can offer.

Leo Fender in his own right was tone deaf. This is by no means being critical of Leo and I loved him as though he were my own father.

He had this thing for treble,he wasn't happy
unless it had that "Now Famous" Fender bite.

Carl West and Roy Ayres may be able to attest to this as they knew Leo on a one to one just as I did..

About 1975 I was out on the west coast doing the NAMM show in Anaheim. Leo and myself and the late Forrest White went to see an employee and friend who was doing a gig nearby the Fender plant.

The three of us and our wives went to see a guitar player by the name of Buddy Kendrick.

Carl and Roy should know Buddy, Anyway as we were waiting to be seated Buddy saw Leo in the club and really turned the treble full on
It was like a "missle" my ear drums almost popped and I could hardly stand the treble,Forrest looked at me and all I could see was his lips moving. I couldnt hear a word he spoke.

Leo on the other hand had a big smile on his face and said in my ear "the one that still had the ear drum" Boy THATS SOME DARNED SOUND
aint it?????

The people in the club were about to run for cover and when Buddy got off the bandstand he
said to Leo,,Leo how was that?? Leo replied
Well sir It needed a bit more treble and he laughed like hell.

Leo would sit at his bench and strum the guitars across the strings with a guitar pick
no one could hear themselves when Leo was in his lab.

It was Forrest who told me that Leo was tone deaf and I replied to Forrest...well Leo made a lot of people go deaf I guess but he sure made a lot of money doing so

Good question Jeff..you are a breath of fresh
air on this Forum and I have been meaning to ask you.."What Do You Wear When You Are Playing????"

Later my friend.

The Knight Of Fender Tweed Has Spoken
Thank you mb.

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 3:08 pm**

There may well have been some serendipity involved but there is no doubt in my mind Adolph R., Leo Fender, et al were a bunch of sharp cookies. That said,I have never run across info on the Rick folks seeking a specific tonal quality--but I bet they were. Imagine a time when any electric guitar sound was brand new--something to ponder.

As usual, Jody has enlightened and entertained us.

Scott, thanks for the bunnybass link. Very informative.

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 3:25 pm**

Scott
Thank you for that story,its right on the money.

Radio & Television (Radio & Tel) was the beginning for Leo Fender and Don Randall.

Roger Rossmeisel came over to Fender back about 1965 when CBS purchased Fender.He and I were good friends until his untimely death.

His Fender acoustic and thin line guitars showed the influence of his past experience with Rickenbacker.Many felt that Rogers design had a "too european" design. Roger was
never able to fill his potential with Fender.
People didnt like the "F" hole design in the semi acoustics such as the Coronado etc.
FC Hall was another good friend,he passed away August 29th in Laguna Beach at age 90.

Leo, while at Radio and Tel had a big influence on FC and in the interim FC started
looking over Leo's shoulder seeing the sucess
that Leo was enjoying. It was that influence that started the change in Rickenbackers way of manufacturing and according to hearsay JB
didnt want the Fender sound that FC was trying to incorporate into Rickenbacker guitars,it was about that time that Forrest White had been after Leo to build a special
guitar for Jerry. The relationship between Leo and Don Randall and FC started showing signs of strain and discord,so then Leo and Don opened the Fender thing and the rest is history.

I know little of John Hall other than what I have heard and read here.

I know Jack Byrd can fill you in on the details. edited to add more treble,,treble not trouble

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 20 March 2003 at 03:28 PM.]

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 3:25 pm**

Hi Jeff,
Well Jody is correct about Leo. I think probably the Rickenbacker tone changes were made in the same manner in which Leo worked on changes. The circuits in both guitars and amps came by way of trial and error. Although he(Leo)was in fact tone deaf he used many a musican's ear to achieve what he was after. And the BITE was one of those little things that made Fender so great.
So, in Rickenbacker's case I'm bett'in the same theroy was used. Leo ALWAYS checked with those he could trust to give him answers that mattered. "What do you think?" Right or wrong, he just wanted the truth. Many times I had to call Leo at the first break from the club to report on what changes he'd made that day in an amp or Pedal guitar.
I've gone through as many as 6 amps in one night reporting on power and circuit changes
and Leo wanted to know what was good, bad or otherwise in the changes he made.
I have been long winded here and do not know if I gave you any help. Buddy Kendricks
was an excellent bass player as well as some guitar. I knew him well and he also was one of many that assisted Leo.
Thanks Jeff.

PS: I always prefered a richer, deeper tone and less of the bite. Leo always took care of the problem.

Carl West
Emmons LaGrande lll
Fender 2000

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 3:37 pm**

Carl
Thanks for the input,Leo always took care of the little things as you posted.He was without a doubt a listener and would listen to everyone for an opinion and then weigh the opinions and go that route.

OK as I stated above regarding Rickenbacker and Leo and FC Hall. I may as well spit it out,they had a "stormy" relationship and neither one cared for one another. This went on for five LONG years. That was too bad as they were both fine gentlemen,but you know how those youngsters are.

This is obviously a well known fact,hell it was in the LA Times back August 30th 1999.

Thanks Carl.Leo told me how he worked on your Dual Showman,I asked him what he modified,he said "more treble"

Thanks Carl.

There are not many of us "natural maple neck" guys left anymore. Hang in there

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 3:40 pm**

.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 24 March 2003 at 09:38 PM.]

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 3:50 pm**

Don't get me wrong ... George Beauchamp is my idol. He definitely had the "Midas Touch"....

Tricone resonator, single cone resonator, horseshoe magnet pick-up, frypan, etc ....

Karma, kismet, genius ... ????

I'm just glad he liked Hawaiian music

And hangin' out with Sol Hoopii didn't hurt either

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 March 2003 at 07:24 AM.]

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 4:18 pm**

... and George's old vaudeville partner - the Grasshopper - what ever happened to him? Lost to the mists of time? No cash to get into his buddy's new company?

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 4:23 pm**

I can't really add much to Jody's post on the Fender sound. By the time I got to Fender, the initial development of essentially all of the pickups was over, and the designs were set in concrete. Except for the Coronado pickups, virtually all of the pickups were built from scratch in the Fender plant. Although I'm getting off to the side of the question asked by Jeff, I'll relate what I recall about the manufacturing methods -- which were Leo's invention and which determined the Fender tone. Round Alnico 5 magnets (that had not yet been magnetized) were used. The top and bottom of the pickup form (made from vulcanized fiber) were placed in a special "jig" that held them the right distance apart and the magnets were pressed into the holes in the fiber, thus forming a spool on which the wire could be wound. The pickups were wound by hand on small coil winders powered by a small "universal" electric motor (actually, a sewing-machine motor) with the speed controlled by a foot potentiometer. Number 42 copper wire was used on almost all of the pickups, although I recall that Number 43 was used on a few. There was also the red or copper-colored wire and green wire. The windings on the pickups were "random" windings -- that is, not laid down in any given pattern of layers, but criss-crossing in a random fashion. The main difference between the various models was the size and thickness of the spools and the number of turns of copper wire. A small, mechanical "Root" counter was attached to the winder and used to determine the number of turns. The women would run the speed up to some fantastic number or RPM's and slow down when they approached the required number of turns. The completed pickups were placed in a huge electromagnet and "zapped" to magnetize the magnets. If you walked within a hundred feet or so of the magnetizer, you could kiss your watch goodbye. As a final step, some models were dipped in wax, some dipped in shellac, and some had a waxed string wound around the outside.

While I was there, the plant purchased a special coil-winding machine that would wind a large number of pickups simultaneously and was intended save big bucks in labor costs. They finally quit using the thing after they found out that it broke wire like crazy. I don't know if they ever got the problem ironed out, but they went back to the manual method and continued that way as long as I was there.

Now, back to the original question regarding the tone. I never heard Leo comment on why he wanted that biting sound. I do recall, though, that he was very highly critical of the Coronado pickups -- which had a soft tone like the old DeArmond guitar pickups. And I do know that he relied heavily on input from professional musicians.

Sorry to have typed such a long thread that really isn't on topic anyway -- but blame it on my old ugly, long winded buddy, Jody, for teaching me his habits.

Roy

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 4:50 pm**

So why is it Gibson didn't win this horse race? They certainly excelled at building non-steels.
(How did we end up with this vernacular, anyway: "non-steel" and "non-pedal"? In printing, non-blur is known as "unsharp masking")

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 5:40 pm**

Rick ... what's that sound?

Why, it's John Dopyera, rolling over in his grave at the mere mention of George Beauchamp's name in conjunction with his (Dopyera's) resonator innovations!

But I have to agree that Beauchamp was certainly in the right places at the right times in guitar history --

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 6:13 pm**

Russ ... In think George was instrumental in the development of the tricone and the single cone resonators....

From what I have read ... he initially enlisted John D. to build his original "Dud" of a Hawaiian steel ...

After that failure he suggested to John that they build one based on the same principle as the mica disc on a Victrola ... the Tricone was born.

It is also reported that Jonn D. was "anti-single cone". George forged ahead with this idea and was granted the patent for the single cone resonator.

Beauchamp was an unsung hero of the steel guitar .... he should be in the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 March 2003 at 07:25 AM.]

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 6:19 pm**

Hey Roy . . . Remember the coil winder well
as I toasted 2 watches !

Carl West

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 6:22 pm**

I guess you could say this about a lot of products but if those early pickups were the signature sound how did we get away from them? Do you think younger generations want something different or whatever is the newest thing. I like a lot of the newer sounds attributed to pickups, amps, effects, etc. but the classic sounds of the old stuff can't be beat. I've noticed that younger kids want the latest guitar or amp but look for vintage gear when thay get older. Sorry for getting of the subject of the question.

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 6:33 pm**

Posted: **20 Mar 2003 7:17 pm**

I agree with Rick on this- serendipity. The Ricks were the first high production versions of a radically new instrument. They sound incredibly good now as they did then. Aluminum was a new material for consumer production, & still pretty exotic at the time. IMHO The frypan is a minimalist form, the small round part of the body being a nod to the acousic origins of the instrument, and the small and hollow form being a way to keep the quantity of (expensive) aluminum used to a minimum. The fact that it ended up being the holy grail of a certain sound is a tribute to serendipity, intuition, or ? . Folks back then were experimenting, and didn't have waveform analysis on their macs. The only macs they had were worn in the rain.

Mr. Rick was a genius inventor of much of the process behind bakelite, which explains that one. The panda was an outgrowth of his interest and expertise in the new disciplines of exothermic polymers and steel guitar- I'm guessing that he designed it more intuitively than scientificaly. I think that one (among many) things that made Fender steels great is that Mr. Fender really listened to the artists that played his instruments, and made them accordingly. As to old single coils, They sure do sound good, and that's why I put vintage reproductions on my guitars.
T. Sage Harmos
Harmos Steel Guitars

Posted: **21 Mar 2003 5:58 am**

I dont think it could have been explained better and as thorough as Roy posted. Good job Roy,I couldnt have said it better,,longer
?? yes? maybe? NO, I dont think so. You did a fine job. Now all we need is a few million
dollars and we can get Carl West and myself and Roy Ayres and start up a new company.

When people (dealers players) would ask why the "F"hole looked different on the Coronado
guitars, I explained it was a fresh new look.

Since that answer was was not accepted, I then told them that since Roger is German,that is the way they spell "F" in Germany.

Here is a question for you Roy and Carl.

If we can raise the money to start the company,what would we name it????

Thanks for your informative reply Mr.Ayres, and you are correct regarding Leo not liking the tone of the Coronado pickups but the idea behind that sound was to capture the DeArmond pickup sound that was preffered by Jazz players.

Leo heard what he wanted to hear and that was
what made him Leo Fender and THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER LEO FENDER.

I think I spoke with a sort of bass tone,I asked him for an increase in commision but he didnt hear me

Thanks for your informative reply sir.

What was the question Jeff??? Carl those Mickey Mouse watches you were wearing back then cost $1.00 a piece and they were "knock off's what the hell did you expect? a Rolex?

I heard you had an expense account that was higher than Roy's. I knew all that you cats were doin at that factory..

and even more than you think..

Roy had the only key to the Mens room,when ya had to go,you had to raise your hand and ask Roy.

You guys made as much money as Leo and George. Dont bitch. It was the ground forces like me that were underpaid.(under the table.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 21 March 2003 at 06:03 AM.]

Posted: **21 Mar 2003 6:20 am**

HA ! In your dreams !

Carl

Posted: **21 Mar 2003 6:29 am**

As far as a name for yet another instrument company, I need several more cups of coffee.
But even with the coffee, I don't think my feeble mind can come up with a thing. I'll leave that to you two dudes.

Carl

Posted: **21 Mar 2003 9:17 pm**

Carl
I can dream cant I ??

They say dreams often do come true.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 21 March 2003 at 09:18 PM.]

Posted: **22 Mar 2003 12:14 pm**

I have received many emails ... some pleasant (Russ) .... others

... from folks regarding the various "players" in the development of tricone and single cone resonator guitars.

I am in awe of my Tricone ... and I certainly understand that the "Brothers" are the craftsmen behind it.

Neither Dopyera and/or Beauchamp were the first to "monkey around" with a mechanical amplification device .... Stroh

I do believe that if George Beauchamp was never born ... I would not have a '27 Style 1 under my baby's crib or an "arsenal" of fantastic electric steels in my loft.

He might not have been able to make his dream of a loud, pleasant sounding Hawaiian steel a reality without engineering help (Dopyera, Barth, Rickenbacher) ... but he was involved in too much to be discounted.

That's just my opinion ...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 March 2003 at 07:26 AM.]

Posted: **22 Mar 2003 12:42 pm**

Jody and Carl: That idea of a new company is just too good to pass up. Check the new thread inder Events and Announcements captioned "Carver/West/Ayres . . ." Better be quick though -- before b0b deletes it!!!!