The Steel Guitar Forum

Ally · Post by **Ally** » 19 Nov 2002 7:40 am

Oh, stop trolling.

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 19 Nov 2002 10:12 am

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Nov 2002 10:32 am

I've seen some guys test a pedal steel by strumming the (unplugged) strings and then feeling the vibrations coming through one of the aluminum legs. FWIW.

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 19 Nov 2002 12:00 pm

As many hours as JB has spent in front of a steel guitar, I'm sure he's developed a "6th Sense" when it comes to that...I wouldn't be surprised if he saw a positive or negative aura around the guitar!

I'm sure the ability to determine the eminence of a guitar without plugging it in, can only come from years and years of practice...

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 19 Nov 2002 12:25 pm

.[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 19 November 2002 at 07:23 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 19 Nov 2002 12:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Is there timbre in an unplugged guitar?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

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"If the SHOES fit ... you must EQUIP..."

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 19 Nov 2002 12:59 pm

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 19 Nov 2002 1:58 pm

Hey Ray
You're always looking to carry someone's case
Why dont you carry your own.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 19 Nov 2002 5:11 pm

Gentlemen, please keep it civil. I think Jeff posted a valid question. If you have a problem with his question, consider resolving it through email rather than in a public forum.

One of the ways that I can tell whether or not a guitar is a good one or not by playing it unplugged. A good guitar has a resonance that's apparent before being amplified; the pickup makes it louder, but not better.

I think this sort of ability may come from Mr. Byrd's considerable experience. I don't claim at all to share even a portion of that experience, but I have seen this with many different lap steels.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 19 November 2002 at 05:19 PM.]

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 19 Nov 2002 5:18 pm

Aloha fellow SGFers, this is my first time wading into this pool and wanted to suggest to Jeff that the next time you talk to our mutual friend Bobby Ingano, ask him about that unplugged vibe thing. He's been asking me to bring my Carvin 2x8 back to the house after having played it briefly only once accoustically. Sez he KNOWS it's a good sounder and wants to give it a run. Me, I wouldn't know as I lose my hearing every time I sit down with my guitars,(yes I know, maybe I should try standing). By the way Jeff, you mentioned you have a group together. Whose in it with you, are you home from school, any gigs on Oahu coming up? I haven't been to a Genoa Keawe show for a little while, are you still sitting in with Alan Akaka? Nuf for now, I'll wrap this up by stating the obvious, that Ray Montee and Rick Aiello are both friendly and steel smart folk. They've helped me out a bunch off line prior to becoming a member and I appreciate it, thank you guys. See ya'll down the line.

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Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 19 Nov 2002 5:22 pm

end[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 19 November 2002 at 07:26 PM.]

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 19 Nov 2002 10:02 pm

..."One of the ways that I can tell whether or not a guitar is a good one or not by playing it unplugged. A good guitar has a resonance that's apparent before being amplified; the pickup makes it louder, but not better...."(Brad)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Exactly...well said Brad. I can tell immediately if a guitar is good or not by strumming across the strings unplugged. I've been at it for about 60 years, I'm certainly no JB, but I know I have the ability to detect a good instrument. Whatever Ray said (and deleted), I can only say he is one helluva steel man with a lot of experience. Whatever it was he deleted was probably valid.
[This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 19 November 2002 at 10:03 PM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 19 Nov 2002 10:04 pm

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 20 Nov 2002 12:35 am

Aloha Jeff,
Yes, the "unplugged" vibe thing DOES work...for a SPECIFIC guitar...I ALWAYS check electric guitars out by first playing them unplugged, and that brings up another valid question...I bought my Les Paul on the Mainland from a VERY large Gibson dealer...The main reason I bought THAT SPECIFIC Les Paul was because playing it "unplugged" I could feel the entire guitar resonate though my body...BUT...I played at least 10 of the Identical model/year even color Les Pauls that day and that was the only one that did that...so, that brings up the point, I'm sure Mr. Byrd could tell that, quote:
-------------------------------------------
So he agreed and he made two prototypes. The first one was not even close the second one was better but still not right. The third one was the one. I could tell by simply putting it on my lap and playing it without plugging it in. I could feel it and when I plugged it in that was it.
--------------------------------------------
The third one was "it"...BUT an individual instrument and a production run, no matter how "limited" NO TWO GUITARS WILL BE IDENTICAL( I have built a few guitars in my day and I'm saying this from personal experience)...even 2 guitars built on the same day by the same man w/the same materials are going to be/sound/feel different...So yes the third one was "it" a good, possssibly great one...but the fourth may have been worse than the first...so Mr. Byrd would have had to have done quality control on all what? all 200 instuments to insure each had "it"...They would have had to build a Thousand of each (long and short) and if they were really lucky they'd end up w/ a couple hundred righteous ones...That's why I made sure my National Tri-Cone was built in 1928...John Dopyera HIMSELF was still doing quality control on EVERY instrument that left the factory...and it is my understanding he sent an awful lot back, that was one of the reasons he left National in Jan. 1929...He wouldn't let a guitar out of the factory unless it was perfect and would not lower HIS standards to please the board and it was costing the factory money for every instrument that didn't pass Mr. Dopyera's Quality Control(and I've heard tell HE was a real stickler)so, yes the third was "it"..but by Mr. Bryd's own account Shot wasn't exactly a quality control guy...so JB says yes this is the one, goes back to Honolulu, and Shot starts production...Like I said..I had #008 and believe me, it was NOT "it"
Aloha,
Mike

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 20 Nov 2002 4:28 am

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Nov 2002 6:30 am

But what if we put a Rickenbacher horseshoe pickup in a Kay steel

It would bring out the VERY BEST in that Kay ... still sound like a Kay ... just the best one on the planet .... (in my opinion)

As far as the Fender/Bakelite ... just send that "original heart" up here ... when you are done with the transplant.

Ron ... Phew ....it always "scares" me to see my name mentioned on a reply ... shell-shock I quess ....

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"If the SHOES fit ... you must EQUIP..."

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 20 Nov 2002 9:57 am

But what if we put a Rickenbacher horseshoe pickup in a Kay steel...or a Fender Champ pickup in a "bakelite"?

Jeff, that's an interesting question, but I doubt you'll ever find an answer to that. At least I hope you never find out!

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 20 Nov 2002 8:06 pm

Oddly enough...these posts give sort of an answer to this question...the Sho-Bud/Excel P.U. Horseshoes are NOT magnetized, so they are basically very hot single coils...why, because Rick horseshoes NEEDED to be magnetized because without it the output was too low...so, a Bakelite w/ a champ P.U. will sound like one of the really crappy bakelites, you know, low output, no "wow tone" that is caracteristic of a REAL RICK horseshoe P.U., conversly a Kay w/ a rick horseshoe will sound like a Kay w/ a really hot single coil.
Mike

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Nov 2002 8:16 pm

because Rick horseshoes NEEDED to be magnetized because without it the output was too low...

Without the "Shoes" there would be NO output ... the pole pieces were not magnetized ...

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"If the SHOES fit ... you must EQUIP..."

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 23 Nov 2002 12:07 am

Well Rick...technically you are correct, but if you check the Patent on the original Horseshoe PU the pole pieces are made of steel which CAN be magnetizied and THEY TOUCH the south poles of the Shoes...I may be incorrect but touch steel to a magnet and it does align itself to the magnet it is touching especially after time...just checked my rick and I'll be darned if those polepieces haven't picked up some magnetic qualities...and just to take it a step further, I removed the shoes and plugged it in and shucks...there WAS output, (but it was just an experiment anyway)

Without the "Shoes" there would be NO output ... the pole pieces were not magnetized ...

..so...They are Magnetized NOW...WITHOUT THE SHOES THERE IS ELECTICAL OUTPUT OF A HIGH ENOUGH LEVEL TO PLAY THE INSTRUMENT AND DRIVE AN AMP...Try it on your Rick...you'll be surprised.
Mike

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 23 Nov 2002 5:25 am

My Rickenbacher Ken Roberts Model (Now on ebay), has the original pickup with the "shoes" removed. I don't know if someone added magnets to the bottom or charged what was there, or what. What I do know is that it has a great "fat" tone. I'm sure the "shoes" were removed to make the guitar playable, as those big ol pickups get in the way when playing Spanish style, plus you can't mute the strings. On pickup builder indicated tha Ric made some pickups this way--without the shoes, but I question that--especilally since the mounting hardware and adjustment screws, etc. are the same.
DD

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 23 Nov 2002 8:22 am

Aloha Dana,
I'd bet dollar to donuts someone took the shoes off(It's only 2 screws), and as my litle experiment proved..the pickups WILL work(If the Polepieces ARE magnetized and they CAN be)....and I personally have never seen an early Rick without a horseshoe pickup..I mean, that's all they made...so I physically took my "shoes" off to see and it will work...I think rick should try it on his "bacher" to see for himself and to try it on more than one or 2 instuments...but I believe the results will be the same.
Aloha, Mike
MS Electrical Engineering, Rutgers University
1979[This message was edited by mikey on 23 November 2002 at 08:25 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 23 Nov 2002 8:26 am

Mikey ... thanks for taking the time to make a point ....

I am very familiar with magnetic induction ... the problem is ... unless the steel is properly hardened (Through or Case) ...

The magnetism is TRANSIENT ...

Heck ... even hardened steel will start to lose it's charge in 20 - 30 yrs ...

I'm sure that 60+ yrs of induction and "conditional hardening" will leave a remnant charge in the pole pieces ... as you guys stated ...

Dana ... don't set that nice "geetar" too close to your amp (speaker magnet) ... induced magnetisim is easily degaussed.

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"If the SHOES fit ... you must EQUIP..."
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 November 2002 at 08:43 AM.]