The Steel Guitar Forum

I thought the no-peddlers would get a kick out of this. Yes, it's fuzzy, but it shows that non-pedal steel is alive and well in Massachusetts. Mass Steel Bash, 2002, Chicopee, MA

Much thanks to Smiley Roberts for the pic.

<font size=1>Smiley I know what I'm getting you for Christmas.. a new camera!</font size=1>
<center> <center>

------------------
<font size=-1>My Site - Instruction | Doug's Free Tab | Steels and Accessories</font>

...who is that masked man?... www.genejones.com

QUESTION: Just curious in my old age, I guess. WHen I hear guys playing Hawaiian music on a non-pedal steel, for the most part is sweet and beautiful, played smoothly and with at least average technique. (Jerry Byrd, Kayton Roberts, Billy Robinson, Don Helms, Howard White, etc.)
But some of the newer guys playing non-pedal, tend to make the guitar into some kind of space-like noise machine.......with scarey vibrato, noisey up and DOWN slides, etc., like they really want to play the thing with an old beer bottle or whatever.
What is this mania? Or, is it a NEW SKILL? What is it that I missed in trying to learn to play it smoothly with "CLASS"?

Who said that Hawaiian music is "sweet and beautiful, played smoothly"? The players on the old recordings sound like wild animals.

Ray,
Which newer non-pedal guys are you refering too?
Just curious who exactly you are listening to when you say they "make the guitar into some kind of space-like noise machine.......with scarey vibrato, noisey up and DOWN slides, etc.,".
Thx,
Pete<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 23 October 2002 at 12:26 PM.]</p></FONT>

WEll Pete.........I don't know the steelman's name but he does play with a popular male singer of note.......and a famous last name. I've seen several more on the Opry with lots of "showmanship" flair....
My comment is not critical of individuals but....."the approach to the non pedal steel guitar" that is being expanded by some of the few working guitarists. It seems to go hand in hand with the popular view that a non-pedal rig is somehow a "lesser machine" than one with pedals.
Just curious..... Don't want to start a name calling situation nor to make anyone feel bad.

C'mon!!! We want names!!!

I think the non-pedal is much harder to master than pedal.
I someone telling you different?
Lets kick their arses!!!

How did we get from the picture up above to a discussion of wild and crazy new players? I'm the player in the picture, and I'm certainly not a "new guy". I'm 52 years of age, been a full time player/teacher my entire life, and I like playing all kinds of music.

To say that non-pedal steel players should only play sweet Hawaiian music is like saying electric guitarists should only play rock. Steel guitar is for everyone. The instrument should be expanded into all types of music, not restricted to "country" or "Hawaiian". Thinking like that is detrimental to the instrument's growth. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 23 October 2002 at 09:45 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>But some of the newer guys playing non-pedal, tend to make the guitar into some kind of space-like noise machine.......with scarey vibrato, noisey up and DOWN slides, etc.,</SMALL>

Are you talking about Speedy West?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>But some of the newer guys playing non-pedal, tend to make the guitar into some kind of space-like noise machine.......with scarey vibrato, noisey up and DOWN slides, etc., like they really want to play the thing with an old beer bottle or whatever.
What is this mania? Or, is it a NEW SKILL? What is it that I missed in trying to learn to play it smoothly with "CLASS"?</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Actually, it's just a different way to play. You can use a Stratocaster like Jimmy Bryant or Jimi Hendrix - neither way is inherently bad, just different.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Yeah, what Alvin said...Speedy West makes Junior Brown sound like he's on valium...

Tom Jordan

Man, I've never listened to speedy, but it sure sounds like I should be.
Can y'all reccomend some CD's?
I tend to like/play Rockabilly, Redneck Jazz, and Swing (a-billy).
-andy-

"Stratosphere Boogie, The Flaming Guitars of Jimmy Bryant and Speedy West" is a great place to start.

Andy,

Stratosphere Boogie has been "resurected" and most likely will be in stock at your local Wherehouse Records...Sounds like you will really enjoy it by your preferences. I know I get a kick out of what he did on steel. Jimmy Bryant ain't no slouch either.

Tom Jordan

Jimmy Bryant was a monster. His solo album The Fastest Guitar in the Country is unbelievable. The best part is the cover photo of him leaning on a hot rod that's shaped like a guitar.

<center> </center>
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 24 October 2002 at 03:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

Now Ray ... You know those first generation electric Hawaiian players had very fast and sometimes quite wide vibratos .... And very "snappy".

Now don't laugh ... but I collect colored spectral analysis sonograms of vibratos...

I have all the early steelers, all kinds of singers, flute, violin, even a theramin and a SAW(at least I did ... till my computer died).

All show similar characteristics ....

A whole number of waves per held note is demonstrated "across the board"....

Tempo and vibrato rate are related in a pretty complicated way.. Basically it seems that the actual rate is inherant to the individual yet it must be flexable in order to keep a whole number of waves per note.

Often the artist increases his rate toward the end of the note to complete the vibrato run in time ... maintaining a whole number of waves(cycles).

The onset varys greatly ... Andy Iona is almost always instantaneous, Sara Vaughn's takes a while to get started.

In polyphonic instruments ... it seems the more notes ringing ... the less vibrato employed.

So you can see, the guys you mentioned and pedal steelers play 2,3,4 or 5 notes at once harmonizing the melody (probably more if they had the fingerage) ... therefore less vibrato.

So y'all are use to hearing less vibrato....so that is what sounds good to you ...

Thats why I like listenin' to Andy Iona and Sol Hoopii ... they are just comin' off Tricones and find themselves playin' RICKYS for goodness sake ...

They are still usin' that hard playin' ... mostly single string ... so lots of serious vibrato .

Plus it was popular with singers back then to have the same fast onset and rate/extent.

My favorite sonogram is Tiny Tim

I personally strive for a vibrato around 6Hz and 30-50 cents .... when playin' single string....hard to be that fast and keep it in line with the tempo .


Sorry to go off topic ... blame Ray <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 October 2002 at 09:07 AM.]</p></FONT>

Rick A.,

I went back to scan your reply twice, looking for the word harmonics. If anyone desires to further the potential of "straight steel", (meaning no pedals), then, perhaps they should stress that no other instrument in the world can match the musical tones of the harmonics produced by a skillful player. (Jerry Byrd) comes to mind, who most will agree, is "The master of touch and tone". Congratulations Doug, for your enormous efforts to preserve the instrument's values.

Bill H.

Rick, that is really cool! Vibrato is the thing that really flags a particular musican. What differences do you see on the scope re Hoopii vs Mcintire vs Iona vs Byrd, etc.?

Bill ...

If you mean the presence of the harmonic series of a single note showing up on a sonogram ...

I participated in a discussion in the Pedal Steel section once regarding why steel guitars usually tune JI while other instruments tune ET ... and I provided b0b with 3 sonograms .... 1 of a Frypan playin' an A note (no vibrato) ; 1 of a Gibson SG playin the same note; and 1 of an upright piano playin an A ...

They clearly showed that the harmonic series of the pan was SO extensive and intense through the 9th harmonic (and beyond) compared to a rather pathetic showin' by the others ... Basically justifyin' the argument that a steel guitar's harmonic content is so rich that if it doesn't tune JI, the ET thirds, dominant 7ths and sixths will clash BIGTIME with the tonics overtone series.

If you meant palm harmonics, finger harmonics,etc. ... Bill, I couldn't agree more .... although that topic didn't really fit into my RAY RAZZ

Clearly no other instrument can match an electric Hawaiian guitar in this arena .... Andy Iona plays some wicked harmonics, Dick McIntire plays them in conjuction with volume swells produced with his pinky on the vol knob ... and of course JB is the God of harmonics. He once said after listening to a recording I sent him ...."too bad you don't play everything using harmonics" ... backhanded compliment ????

Andy, like I said ...I lost all in a "crash" but I remember em pretty well ... To sum up the best I can:

Andy Iona .... the fastest of the bunch ... almost as if he never stops the vibrato throughout the phrase ... simply moving from note to note and "attacking" at the exact position of a node ... VERY difficult to reproduce (It's been my focus since gettin those great CD's from Bruce Clarke)

Sol Hoopii .... a much more focused vibrato ... only using it on "pause" notes or notes at the end of a phrase .... His tricone stuff is very fast (faster than Iona's electric) ... upwards of 6.5 Hz .... his electric stuff .... slower

Dick McIntire ... his early electric stuff was like Hoopii's tricone work .... on average the widest of the bunch ... his later recordings ... more harmonizing of the melody, therefore, less vibrato (extent and rate)

JB .... I have just about all his recordings .... I had samples that showed him equally "at home" with fast McIntire-like stuff .....all the way to just subtle "grace" movements ... His range is staggering !!!!

This stuff (sonogram) is real easy to do... I have the Spectral Analyzer plug-in for Sound Forge ... highlite a note or passage ... hit color sonogram and presto ... the upper harmonics (5-9) show the clearest picture ... and are easiest to read.

THE fastest I ever saw was a Theramin ... rate of 7-8 Hz ... got it from a B -movie ... 1950 Sci-Fi .. Drive-in deluxe

Sorry again Doug and Brad ... I was just replyin' .... and this is my favorite topic.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 October 2002 at 12:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

WHAT? Did Rick say????

Rick A.,

Music has so many variables, not the least of all, the diatonic scales at different pitches. The musical options are endless. There is not a living soul who can rush the podium, and make predictable claims about what music will be like, say, 200 years from now. Where are the facts? Everything in music can be improved upon. It's a
never ending phenomenon. Scientific approaches do not necessarily have the last word in the vast expanses of musical possibilities. Music can belittle the greatest of minds,
by its profound nature.

Thank you for your reply that is very enlightening, especially on the subject of harmonics.

Bill H.

I agree with Andy that vibrato is unique to each steel player and is a good way to identify a player. Some players use a slow rolling vibrato while others prefer a faster bar motion. To my ear, too slow is too dull and too fast sounds goofy, but to each his own. I guess it depends on the style of music being played. There are certain players whose vibrato drives me up a wall and I can't listen to it. Don't ask for names!

In regard to harmonics (Chimes), I love them and I put chimes into almost every song I play, regardless of the style. They sound great in rock and blues as well as country and Hawaiian. On a 4 hour gig with 40 songs, I'll use chimes in about 35 of them! I hope chimes never become a lost art.

The Stringmasters, like the one in the photo, are fantastic for harmonics because the pickups produce nice clear highs. And the wood.... something about that wood!

------------------
<font size=-1>My Site - Instruction | Doug's Free Tab | Steels and Accessories</font>

I'm still trying to figure out who Ray was listening to in his first and second thread, lol.

Doug,

I did not want to remain silent on your expressed interest on a variety of steel guitars. Many fans have noticed your ability to move from lap steel, to stand up steel, and then to single or double neck steel, with exceptional dexterity. You still continue to surprise me, as you did at the "Willows", in Hinsdale, MA in 1980. Most invariably, I hear new techniques in your style from time to time. That is a good reason to attend your shows. Many fans have enjoyed your tone and presentation over the years.

Bill H.

Thank you for those kind words Bill. As you know, I play mostly PSG, but I do enjoy playing non-pedal steel on gigs occasionally. I also use my lap steels and the dobro in the studio quite often.

It's interesting to see how people react to the lap steel as opposed to PSG. I find that the average person can relate more easily to non-pedal steel than to pedal steel guitar. It's a more basic instrument, more accessible and understandable than PSG. Even most musicians are confounded by PSG, yet they can relate to non-pedal or "slide" as they call it.

------------------
<font size=-1>My Site - Instruction | Doug's Free Tab | Steels and Accessories</font>


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 04 November 2002 at 11:01 PM.]</p></FONT>