The Steel Guitar Forum

I know, it's a debate that could(and has) go one for eons. But I am looking into getting a new computer, a laptop for sure. I dig the portability. I almost bought a Dell yesterday but I am sure I'll be using protools someday soon. Mac is the way to go. But which Mac? ibook? Powerbook? do I need the 1.33GHz or will 1GHz work? 256MB or 512MB? 40 GB or 60 GB?
thanks....
*technologically frustrated in LA

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www.natelapointe.net

hello,

this question depends entirely on your personal tastes. Our studio uses both PC's and Macs for audio and music production, and they both work perfectly. Pro tools works best with MACS, although there is now a version available for PC, it isn't as reliable as the MAC version.

If you plan to use it mostly for Internet, and word processing stuff, AND a little audio thrown in for good measure, it doesn't really matter either way. This might not be any real help, but I could go on for hours and hours.

Perhaps you could e-mail me with some more specific questions and I could give you an even more convoluted answer.



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Kiyoshi
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As a PC & Mac user who is growing increasingly frustrated with his PC, I agree with your Mac leanings. The usual rule of thumb is to buy as much computer as you can afford at the time. I'm not up on the latest Apple models so I'll leave the ibook vs. powerbook and Ghz questions to others. But when it comes to RAM and hard drives, you can almost always get third party options cheaper than their Apple-brand counterparts. I recall the RAM that I added to my iMac being much cheaper at crucial.com than it was through Apple. The iMac came with a 40gb hard drive, but I have since found a large external firewire drive on sale and added it to the system. So you might want to compromise a bity by paying for the better components (powerbook, faster processor) up front and going with less expensive third-party alternatives on the other upgrades.

I use ProTools Digi002 with a Mac G4. I am running a dual 1.4 processor with 1 gig of RAM. I have had 18 tracks with a total of 46 plug-ins running with no problems. I tried using a Digi 001 on a Dell PC that was purchased specifically for the Digi001 and had problems constantly.

My vote would definately be for the Mac. My advice would be get as much processing power as you can as well as all the RAM you can.

Use the internal hard drive for the application and use an external fire wire to record to.

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Mullen SD-10, Nashville 400, Peavey Profex II

Steelin' - The most fun a fella' can have, legally!!

Hey Nate,

To be fair, Mac and PC both have issues with Pro Tools (more with LE). If anyone disagrees, take a look at the Pro Tools discussion forum (http://www.digidesign.com), there are just as many issues in the Mac users area as with the PC users.

One nice thing about Mac is that it is a proprietary system, so you are not going to have as many hardware conflicts as you might have with a PC. Basically, PC’s are not standardized, so it becomes difficult to test Pro Tools on every conceivable configuration, so in that respect you would be "safer" with a Mac. But, I found comparable Mac is about twice as expensive as a PC, so that is a factor.

I am running a Digi002 with Pro Tools LE 6.4.1 on a AMD 64 (2.8 Mhz) with one gig of RAM, all built specifically for PT. I have a 140 Gig SATA C: drive and a 140 gig D: drive to record to. I have had issues now and then, but nothing major. I've been able to run 24 tracks with all kinds of plug-ins, and I know that some folks on the DigiDesign forum have had up to 36 tracks.

It is a very good idea to have two separate drives, one for your OS, and one for recording. Also, you'll want the fastest speed hard drives you can afford as your latency and recording issues will improve as your speed does. Don't go below 7,000 RPM with 8 MB buffer. My SATA drive is 10,000 RPM with a 8MB buffer, my other drive is a 7,000.

I also have an external hard drive, but you are limited to the speed of your firewire connection, which sometimes is not fast enough to keep up with PT. I found my external hard drive is perfect for backing up PT sessions, and for taking PT sessions to other studios to work on.

My advice would be to take a look at the Pro Tools forum before deciding which to purchase, if running Pro Tools is your ultimate goal. Specifically, there are numerous threads running about "Best PC for Pro Tools", "Best Mac for Pro Tools" etc.

Anyhow, yes, it's a debate that could go on and on

Jay

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jay Kardong on 18 August 2004 at 04:37 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jay Kardong on 19 August 2004 at 08:42 AM.]</p></FONT>

I bought a G4 Powerbook recently, and I really like it, but I didn't realize that you need to use an external hard disk to do any serious multitrack recording. The internal drive just isn't fast enough.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)</font>

Thanks you guys. Again, this forum amazes me. The wealth of knowledge and information here is unsurpassed.
I am leaning towards the powerbook, although for $200 less (and .33 GHZ less) I can get an ibook which has a 14" screen as compared to the 12" powerbook screen. The 15" and 17" powerbooks are out of my price range.

Be aware that with the iBook 14", you don't get a higher resolution screen than the 12", just bigger. They are both 1024 x 768 pixels. One thing to consider when comparing an iBook to a PowerBook is that a PowerBook (even the 12" one) is capable of running an external display in extended desktop mode, increasing your screen size dramatically. You can plug in an external display into an ibook, but you just get a "mirror" of the internal display, again at 1024 x 768.

wow, thanks Jerry. I was unaware of that. I guess size DOESN'T matter, it's what you can do with it, right?

Actually, you can run two screens from the Powerbook at once, containing different things. Hook up a high res monitor for ProTools, and use the Powerbook display for file chores. You can even drag things from one screen to the other.

The first time I hooked up an external monitor, I thought it wasn't working. It turned out that I just didn't have anything on it. I dragged a window over from the laptop's screen, and everything was hunky dorey.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)</font>

Yes, that's what I meant by extended desktop mode. The iBook doesn't have that, though. It just duplicates what's on the buit-in screen. Apart from that, there's really not that much difference between a G4 iBook and a 12" Powerbook. A little more speed, a few more drive options, but the display capability is what would tip the scales for me in favor of the PowerBook.

Also consider that the Ibooks, although they have a comparable processor, the buss speed is lower. Making it a bit less optimal for High end applications like audio and video.

I would recommend anyone getting started to skip the whole SLO TOOLS thing and try Nuendo. IT's infinetly better, IMHO.



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Kiyoshi
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Nuendo may be a better program, but Pro Tools has become the standard. Let's say I record drums at a real studio then want to bring the tracks home to add guitar to them. 99% of the studios I work in use Pro Tools, so I'd need it here to add my tracks and work on my project.

If you want to record and your idea of a "PC" is a Dell, do yourself a favor and don't buy a "PC"; do yourself a favor and buy an Apple computer. It works right out of the box, everything is cute and pretty, and Apple does a decent job idiot-proofing it. Plus, since OS X is loosely *nix-based, it's actually a decent OS.

If you really want to do research to figure out what you need to do computer recording on a PC, then go for the PC; it's more bang for your buck. If you think that ProTools is the only fantastic music production program out there, though, or if it's the only one you know about, don't bother with the PC route. You will find it a lot more of a pain in the @$$ than you'd ever want to deal with.

If you actually live in LA, there must be an Apple store somewhere near you. Go to it, talk to them, they should be able to hook you up with what you need. The general rule, though, is to get as much RAM and as much CPU power as you can afford. This will afford you low latency times and the ability to work on larger projects.

Good luck, and happy computer hunting. It's always fun to get a new computer.

<SMALL>Plus, since OS X is loosely *nix-based, it's actually a decent OS.</SMALL>

It's not "loosely" Unix-based - it's FreeBSD, which is in fact a real Unix operating system. BSD is the Berkeley System Distribution of Unix, developed in parallel with the Bell Labs version. The 'Free" in the name was added to emphasize that it is free of the licensing hassles that plague both the Bell branch of the Unix family tree and Linux, a Unix clone.

FreeBSD is also the most secure modern OS in distribution today. It has survived nearly 3 decades of extreme real world testing and leading edge development. It closely matches all Unix documentation, better than SunOS, SCO, Linux or any other Unix-like product. FreeBSD is Unix, more so than any other product on the market today.

Apple put a very pretty face on OS X, but under the hood lies one of the best operating systems ever developed - Berkeley Unix. Hard to beat that!

<SMALL>Apple put a very pretty face on OS X, but under the hood lies one of the best operating systems ever developed - Berkeley Unix. Hard to beat that!</SMALL>

Some sources disagree. This link was posted on /.

This is not worth a religious war.

Nate, best of luck on shopping for your computer!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 22 August 2004 at 08:07 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>Nuendo may be a better program, but Pro Tools has become the standard. Let's say I record drums at a real studio then want to bring the tracks home to add guitar to them. 99% of the studios I work in use Pro Tools, so I'd need it here to add my tracks and work on my project.</SMALL>

No problem. I use Nuendo (on PC) and you simply export the audio files with the same start point for all, and import in ProTools.
You can also import/export projects in the OMF format.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

That article compares Linux to Windows, Chris. I could only find one reference to OS X, and exactly what part of OS X they were evaluating was unclear. Their bias is clear - they refered to OS X as a "toy" operating system.

The kernal of OS X is FreeBSD. There are a lot of Apple programs sitting on top of FreeBSD. FreeBSD shares no code with Linux. They are different operating systems.

I agree, b0b, it's not clear WHAT exactly they tested, but the intention from what I could grep out of the article was to find some way that the system could be compromised. Immunity's head honchos made a request to find one, and the code-monkeys recorded how long it took them to find one. The chart, I believe, shows that management requested exploit finds (Number of 0day) 3 times for Mac OS X, and the average time it took for the underlings to actually find an exploit was an hour (Average Time). Now, exactly what the extent of this exploit was, it's obviously not documented, although since this is a private study, and the company gets its funding doing this sort of thing, I think it's fair to allow them to not give away details, since that would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Instinct tells me, however, that whatever damage those exploits would allow on OS X is NOTHING compared to what they found on Windows. I'm totally with you that OS X is a bitchen OS. I really enjoy it compared to when I work with WinXP. I have respect for OS X.

This discussion has got me interested in learning more about FreeBSD. I'm a Libranet GNU/Linux user by choice, and I'm not likely to change that soon, but it's never bad to know what else is out there. So thanks, b0b, for another learning experience.

Now, that's sufficiently been off-topic. My apologies for hijacking this thread.

Nate,

I would go with a PC. You are going to buy a laptop, so I don't think recording with it is going to be it's sole purpose, (hard drive issues, etc).

I wouldn't imagine you would spend the incredible sum of money Protools will cost you, to set it up on a laptop, either. For that, you'll probably want a desktop. A mac might be a good choice at that time.

There is just way more demo's and free programs available for the PC. You're not going to like being incompatable quite a bit of the time, I don't think. Every time you want to share a file with a PC user, you won't be able to, etc.

I could be wrong, but for a laptop, I would go with an IBM compatable.

Les

I'll give you two of my pics for portability, features, and price:

One of my partners at the studio just bought himself an M-box for his birthday. It's a very sweet deal. You get a 4 input interface, with phantom power, Spdif ins and outs, connects through USB, and needs no electrical power. It also comes with the standard Pro tools LE software, plus a watered down version of Reason, and Live, Both good programs if your into the one-man-show thing.

Another option is the Oxygen by m-audio. This is a MIDI keyboard, 24/96 audio interface, all in one package. ALso connects USB and needs no external power. It's alot cheaper than the M box, but it does not come with any audio software, so you have to buy something later on, like NUENDO!!!!

Anyway, Since I'm personally tired of Pro tools, (having used it since version 3 or 4) I would go with the Oxygen. Either of these is an awesome companion to either a PC or a MAC Laptop. Especially for the home consumer who wishes to dabble a little and see if it is worth it to later spend more bucks on an AUDIO and MUSIC only System.

anyway, hope this helps.

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Kiyoshi
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I love the apple machines and would have one if it weren't for a friend of mine's hardware problems. The first one was a PowerBook G3 and within about six months it was having unknown problems, so she shipped it back. It got lost in the mail, so they shipped her a new PowerBook G4 last October (both machines were on a lease program). That machine is currently in Apple's hands as they fix a bad display.

The operating system itself is rock solid and I wish I had the software available to me that Mac users do for recording. In the next machine I get (it'll be an Intel x86 machine), though, I'm going to put 10,000 RPM Serial ATA drives in for the sake of performance. I doubt I'd hesitate about an Apple desktop but I don't have the $$$ for that right now.

Jonathan

Mac, PC, and Unix user here. I use my iBook for everything. I used to think it allowed me to run my life, and I can take it anywhere. WIreless, I walk around with it, connected to the world. Now with Band in a Box, I see that I can sit down and play music with it too!

While it might be true there are more demos out there for PCs than fore Macs, the same could be said for viruses, spyware and so on. On my Mac, I live, more or less, in blissful ignorance of the evils in the world.

As for hardware and software mess ups, glitches and hang ups, in my experience, about the same (except that in the PC world there seem to be more conflicts between programs' installed files that one vendor installs not caring about other vendors' wares. Just my experience. I don't want to start a major discussion, argument or war.

Well, I did it. I ordered my 12" Powerbook G4 today. I am excited to have a new computer, it's been 4 1/2 years! This ol' beast has been good to me but she's slowing down.
Thanks for all your help guys, I took each and every one of your comments and weghed them with my own personal experiences to make my descision.

Congrats on your new toy. Perhaps you might make a folder that details your experiences with the machine, both good and not so good.

That way you have a detailed account of how it worked that you can share in the future with those who asked the questions you asked.

Just a suggestion.