Could we start a pedal height register?

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 8 Oct 2006 1:57 am

Hi everyone

This topic is for me (me, me, me) as I am starting to look for a new vol pedal, and height is critical, as I am 6'1" and struggling to wriggle my right leg in under there.

I thought it might be instructive for people in addition to myself, if a few of us posted the heights of our various pedals for easy reference (I hope this hasn't been done before!)

I'll start - my Behringer FCV100 (don't laugh - it only cost me the equivalent of about US$35 brand new) is 2&5/8 inches tall fully on (i.e. pedal flat) and 5&9/16 inches at its highest point when tilted back (fully off). I don't know that the second statistic is all that important, but I have included it for completeness.

Any dimensions posted by fellow forumites will be gratefully noted.

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 8 Oct 2006 2:06 am

My Goodrich L10K is 2.25" at full volume position.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 8 Oct 2006 4:14 am

The Hilton is supposed to be the lowest of the pedals designed for steel guitarists.
http://www.hiltonelectronics.net/hilton2.html

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 8 Oct 2006 5:59 am

They don't claim to be the "lowest". They

claim to be the SAME as the competitors.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 8 Oct 2006 6:12 am

Goodrich 120----2 1/2"

Old BMI---------2"

Fender----------2" (a hair under)

The Fender is a volume-only pedal, not the V/T which is almost 2 3/4". The Fender was measured at halfway position which is its level position. Full on & full off are both inclined postions.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 8 Oct 2006 8:52 am

Let me present some ideas as food for thought. I can build a volume pedal out of conductive foam, that is 1/4 inch high. Honest, I can built it 1/4 inch high. Did anyone think that with a pedal 1/4 inch high, the movement up and down will only be 1/4 inch? I bet that thought never occured to you. As most pedals get lower, the hinge point moves further to the rear. Did you ever think about what happens when you move a hinge point? Let me give you a real example. If two pedals have the same hinge point, and both move up and down in front exactly 1 1/2 inches, what happens if you move one of the pedal's hinge point back 3/4 of an inch? Even though both pedals still move up and down 1 1/2 inch in front, the pedal with the hinge point set back 3/4 of an inch, makes the movement FEEL LIKE it is twice as fast as the pedal that did not have it's hing point moved. It changed the feel totally. I know that a guitar pedal seems like a simple device, and most people seem to know much more about one than I do, even though I have made a study of volume pedals for years. Just shows how dumb I really am. For most people it never occurs to them to raise their guitar. Instead, most people's mind stays focused on lowering their volume pedal. In my opinion lowering a volume pedal has many more consequences than raising a guitar. You can buy kits for raising a guitar, and kits don't cost much.
But what do I know, I am just a dumb guy who builds guitar pedals.[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 08 October 2006 at 09:56 AM.]

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 8 Oct 2006 9:58 am

Goodrich L120 is 2 1/8. Full on.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 8 Oct 2006 12:15 pm

Hey Keith

Thanks for yr response - I didn't mean to cause a ruckus; and in fact I have read some of these comments of yours on previous threads, so I should have anticipated and worded things accordingly.

I can raise my guitar one inch no probs, but if I raise it any more then my playing becomes a little less comfortable in the shoulder area (lifting elbows etc), so pedal height is a consideration for me at this stage.

I'm just interested to compare heights - I'm not making a political statement of any sort about ideal pedal heights. I should imagine you know more about pedals that almost anyone, so I don't have an issue with your views on that.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 8 Oct 2006 4:26 pm

Jeremy, it is good to see people in Australia playing steel guitar. Jeremy, I only wanted to post some ideas to think about. Everything has consequences. In the case of a volume pedal there are several things to consider besides height alone. There are some people who hunt out the lowest pedal they can find. Manufacturers have realized if they claim to have the lowest pedal it helps sell their pedals to some people. A few years back, one of my compeditors lowered their pedal for the sole purpose of claiming their pedal was the lowest. I checked their pedal out and found that in the process of lowering their pedal they had also decreased up and down movement by 1/4 inch. Their pedal was a pot pedal, and this 1/4 inch decrease in up and down movement prevented the pot shaft from turning all the way wide open. My pedal does not have a pot and the design allows me to get low without losing up and down movement.
I simply built a pedal lower than my competition and my pedal still moved up and down the standard 1 1/2 inches. Jeremy, how low would you like a pedal to be? How much up and down movement would you like in front?
You know a pedal can't move up and down more than it's height. To get a pedal lower Jeremy, would you be willing to sacrifice anything? What if you had to give up pot rotation, where the pot did not turn all the way open, or all the way off. If height is the only consideration, why not go with the 1/4 inch high conductive foam and let me build you one. The more you push on the 1/4 foam rubber the more volume you get. No one ever answers the question," "How low is low enough?" My low pedal is presently as low or lower than any pedal I know of, that still moves up and down a full 1 1/2 inches in front. Jeremy all I am trying to do is help you with ideas. [This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 08 October 2006 at 05:30 PM.]

Wally Taylor · Post by **Wally Taylor** » 8 Oct 2006 6:18 pm

Well, first of all, who says a volume pedal must go up and down? The height could be lowered or even standardized if the pedal rotated to the right or to left instead. Would that be a problem?
Wally Taylor

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 8 Oct 2006 6:34 pm

Thanks Keith,

For what its worth, I am expecting that a 2.5" high pedal will work fine for me. That is the height of the pedal that I have now, and I have some clearance under the steel, which has a 2" lift kit in it. I think I can take lower the steel one inch, and a 2.5 inch high pedal will still be OK.

I simply want to know the height of various brand pedals - how high are yours?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Oct 2006 6:51 pm

I have a Beck that's about 2 1/4" and a Fender that's a hair under 2".

But - when cranked up the Fender, because of the hinge placement, is actually higher than the Beck - it puts your knee in a raised position, with your toe pointed down. he Beck takes your foot from a toe-up position to flat.

So it's not just pedal height - it's design. With my GFI I can just barely use the Beck, and can't use the Fender at all - I can't use RKR very well with either, so it looks like I do need an extension kit - I hadn't used a volume with my Fender steels and didn't think about it until I played the GFI for a while.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 8 Oct 2006 8:04 pm

Wally, I call that thinking outside the bun. Great reply! If a pedal moved from side to side you could make it really low. Wally I think my electronics would let me build a pedal that moved from side to side that would be less than an inch tall. Only question then would be which way, right or left to increase volume. Jeremy, I will be happy to measure my pedal's height for you. I just need to know at what point you want me to measure, because the height is different at several points. Do you want the height at the front, the hinge point, or the rear end? Of these 3 places do you want the pedal all the way off, or all the way on, or part way down? When you mention height of a pedal, there are several points to be considered, not just one point, and not just one position. Jim, I have never heard of a Beck pedal, who makes it?

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 8 Oct 2006 8:33 pm

I can raise my guitar one inch no probs, but if I raise it any more then my playing becomes a little less comfortable in the shoulder area (lifting elbows etc), so pedal height is a consideration for me at this stage.

Maybe a lift kit for your seat, next?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Oct 2006 10:21 pm

Keith - It says "Beck Musical Instruments" on the front. I got it in a trade a while back. It's quiet and seems to work, so I use it - I know squat about steel guitar volume pedals....coming from that "other" guitar world the prices on them kind of astound me, to be honest. I mean - it's a volume pedal..right?

Wally Taylor · Post by **Wally Taylor** » 9 Oct 2006 3:46 am

Hey, thanks Keith for liking my idea on the side to side volume pedals. Just send me a free pedal when you get the side version made and I won't charge you for using my idea.........HA! I always wanted a Hilton pedal!

Wally Taylor

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 9 Oct 2006 5:13 am

Hi,

I have NOT measured my pedals, but I do know that I went from a "standard height" pedal to a "low profile" pedal for the knee clearence issue stated above. All the while, I was playing a GFI standard height guitar. (Great guitar by the way).

I later went to an Emmons PP guitar which I dearly LOVE, again, "standard height, with an Emmons pedal, some clearence problems here as well. Bought a HILTON low profile pedal from Bobbe Seymour and haven't had any problem with clearence or anything else. Not only does it feel better to me, the SOUND is AWESOME.

Been playing it well over a year now. No adjusting, no replacing scratchy sounding parts, no worries. Just plug it in and play! Can't get much better than that!

Keith Hilton has definately revolutionized the volumn pedal industry.

I like to see the exchange of new ideas here (and anywhere else for that matter). You never know when something brilliant will be discovered. Keep the thinking caps close at hand!

I have been lucky enough to be in on some "new ideas" related to things that are not steel guitar related,(hint: click the link in my signature) but the processes are the same. They all start out with "what if?" or "why is?" Most all great inventions begin this way.

Everyone should keep the creative ideas flowing, and for sure, Keith, Please keep on building the greatest pedal ever!

------------------
David Collins
www.alpinesoap.com

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 9 Oct 2006 9:57 am

Carter Volume pedal 1.996" straight across when fully on.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 9 Oct 2006 11:39 am

Jim, prices on everything effect me the same way they do you. I recently saw a used single neck Zum Steel that was priced at $3,195.00. I can remember back when gas was $.19 cents a gallon and I thought it was the end of the world when it jumed to $.26 cents, then $.36 I have not raised prices in 8 years on my pedals, even though all my parts cost me more each time I order. David, thanks for the kind words about my volume pedal. David, actually people buy my volume pedal because I am so good looking, not because they work and sound great. Wally, and Lynn, it is good to see people out there in Steel Guitar land who have original ideas! I like you guy's ideas. If it was all about sales and making money, I would be making a pedal that was one inch tall, trying to cut throat listing how tall my pedal was. Instead, I am trying to build a pedal that works great for the player. I happen to think there should be more to a pedal than being the lowest. Maybe I care more about the player than I do pushing sales.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Oct 2006 6:34 pm

Keith, what I was really commenting on was not quality or precision, which I really appreciate...and I'll admit to being a buyer of boutique guitar pedals that are worth as much as my son's car...yikes.

I just don't grasp any difference in volum pedals other than feel. I've had 10 or 15 different ones over the years, and they all sounded the same - they turn it down, they turn it up, and they don't suck anything out of the tone. Never had a scratchy pot or any other problem.....and on guitar, used the pedal a lot for various effects.

So I'm not dissing a high-grade volume pedal...I just don't understand the "why". I've used that Fender for 25 years at least...others have come and gone and the Fender is still here. Either it or that Beck would be fine (or *will* be fine) when I stick a lift kit on my GFI - on the Fender 400 I'm SOL.

But as far as "boutique" volume pedals, I will claim pure ignorance - and this is another one of those situations where us L.A. folks are weirdly out in the cold, with no place within 80 miles or so to try not-inexpensive steel products before buying. But I will say I'm a tonally anal player, and when I use the volume (either one) or plug straight in, there's no difference in tone. I DO have plenty of pedals that whack the life out of guitar tone...but a volume pedal isn't one of them, at least as far as I can tell. Maybe it's because I don't run the normal squeaky-clean solid-state amp system most people do for steel?

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 10 Oct 2006 3:32 am

Hi Keith,

Buy your pedal due to your good looks eh?

They buy my Laundry Detergent for the same reason, but then they find out how well it works and buy more

Kidding aside, thanks for a great product.

------------------
David Collins
www.alpinesoap.com

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 11 Oct 2006 5:40 am

I can remember back when gas was $.19 cents a gallon and I thought it was the end of the world when it jumed to $.26 cents, then $.36

There was a place close to home that charged $.36 and I too thought it was outragous! When the other stations started charging $.56 then $.75, this same station still sold at $.36 for about a week. Suddenly it looked like a bargain! Woo Hoo!

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 11 Oct 2006 5:53 am

O.K. Guys...... Pay attention here.

I don't know how many of you use to repair the old style radios that had the medal plates style tunning condensrs to change stations. They use a string wrapped around the tunning condenser knob and went over to the little bitty knob that you turned to change stations. In some radios, you only turnd the knob 180 degrees because that was as far as the tuner itself would go.(full open,full close) On the Expensive sets,they had 2 plastic drumn thingies that the string wrapped around too. This enabled the customer to turn the little knob completely around 3 or 4 times before the tuner condenser fully opend or closed. You could tune in the stations very,very precisely.

Now, should some highly entrepriseing young person use this double style string pully system on a volumne pedal, you could get the whole 270% travel of a pot in a 1 inch movement of the pedal.

I know it can be done because I've restrung many,many of those old radios during my career as a tech.

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http://home.comcast.net/~crookwf/
http://photobucket.com/albums/v479/billcrook/

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 11 Oct 2006 11:28 am

When you mention height of a pedal, there are several points to be considered, not just one point, and not just one position

Actually the full on position is typically the only one of interest because that's the position that raises your knee and leg to their highest position and dictates the amount of clearance under the guitar.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Oct 2006 2:33 pm

Jim, do a search on the Matchbox and on Hilton pedals and you will find many discussions of how volume pedals affect tone. Pot pedals cut the highs in relation to the lows as the volume decreases. This may not be too noticeable when playing with a group in the pedals upper volume range, but hurts the quality of the tone when playing alone or in quiet recording situations. The Matchbox and other buffer type devices boosted the signal going into the pedal and cured the problem. Steelers use their volume pedal constantly, and the pots do get scratch after while. Apparently it is difficult to find high quality pots these days, and they get scratchy sooner. A potless, impedance matching pedal like the Hilton and the Goodrich electric eye pedals cures all these problems. They do make a big difference in sound, and are worth the extra money.

Bill C., your gear ratio idea would help to get the rull range of the pot. But if you drop the range of motion of the pedal below the standard range, you get "faster" action, without as much control.

As for the side-to-side idea, to me that is not as natural a motion as up and down, and I don't think I would have as much fine control. There have been double action pedals with volume up-and-down, and wah from side-to-side. The wah action seems much more awkward than the volume action.