The Steel Guitar Forum

Lately I started to connect my steel guitar and Nashville 400 by the three cables system by Peavey.
So far, result is quite good ,however, I still have one question.
I also use a Matchbox by Goodrich.
Which part is the best position to place the Matchbox ? Between guitar and the amplifire ? Between send of the amplifire and foot volume pedal ?
Or between out of foot volume and the return of the amplifire ?
I have tried all of these.
Every way there is fifferent on the sound.
I am not sure which way is the best.I would like to have some suggestion from you.

The Match Box clips onto the right-rear guitar leg. The short cord goes from the guitar/jack to the Match Box Input (top/jack). The Match Box Output (bottom/jack) cord goes to the Pre-Gain Input on the Amp., if you're patching your vol. pedal into the pre-EQ loop. If you're using the regular hook-up, the Match Box Output cord goes to the vol. pedal Input (front) jack, and the pedal Output to the Amp. Input. The guitar output/jack always goes to the Match Box Input first, reguardless, and I personally find absolutely no benefit to the three cord hook-up! If anyone knows 1. benefit, please let me know! Just because it works, doesn't make it beneficial! Respectfully, "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Thank you John for the suggestion, however,
your explanation is on the case of regular hook up.
On the three cords hook up,a cord from guitar jack goes to pre gain in put, and ,
volume pedal is connected to pre EQ patch.
My question is that where should i put the Match Box.
Between guitar jack and pre gain input ?
Between send of pre EQ patch and in put of volume pedal ?
Or between output of volume pedal and return of pre EQ patch ?

John gave you the answer:

<SMALL>The short cord goes from the guitar/jack to the Match Box Input (top/jack). The Match Box Output (bottom/jack) cord goes to the Pre-Gain Input on the Amp.</SMALL>

I agree with John that a MatchBox is not needed unless you're going from guitar to volume pedal to amp.

I run my volume pedal in the effects loop of my effects processor and don't use/need a MatchBox. I don't suffer any tonal variations over the travel of the pedal either.

Here is an article that I wrote last year concerning our "volume pedal patch". Maybe it will shed some light on the subject. I understand that the MATCHBOX is to help in matching the output of your guitar pickups to the input of the amp without lose? Well, this is what our PRE EQ PATCH or VOLUME PEDAL PATCH accomplishes. I've never read or even seen an article on these so I amp not quite sure of its purpose. Anyway, here's the article;
THE PRE EQ PATCH
“WHY IS IT CALLED A VOLUME PEDAL PATCH?”
By Mike Brown

Since Peavey Electronics first introduced the Session500 steel guitar and fiddle amplifier back in 1980, we have been the only company to offer an interesting solution to the problems that are encountered when using potentiometer based pedals for controlling the volume of the amp. Although our “volume pedal” or “pre eq patch” point has been a standard feature on every steel amp since the Session500, players may not be aware of this unique method of “inserting” their volume pedal into the circuit on the various models that have been introduced since that time. On the Session500, this insert point was labeled “PEDAL-IN & OUT”. On the Vegas 400 and the Nashville 400, it was labeled “PRE EQ PATCH-IN & OUT”. On the Session400 Limited, this insert point is labeled “PRE EQ PATCH-SEND & RETURN”. On our latest models, the Session2000 and Nashville1000, this insert point is labeled “PRE EQ PATCH-SEND & RETURN”. Although they are all labeled with different names, the purpose and results are the same.

A typical volume pedal patch is made between the guitar and the amplifier input. However, doing so could cause the tone of the guitar to change as the pedal is moved up and down with changing volume requirements, because this patch introduces a varying resistance as seen by the guitar pickups. The Peavey pedal patch allows the user to insert a volume pedal into the active pre-amp circuit, thus increasing the performance of the volume pedal. Because the volume pedal is patched in after the first pre-amp stage, no signal degradation occurs regardless of the pedal volume setting. The volume pedal changes only the volume without affecting the tone or character of the guitar voice.

This is how the circuit works. When an instrument signal is routed through either the high gain or low gain inputs (10db gain difference between the two types), it is routed through a first order high-pass filter that blocks DC into and out of the first operational amplifier (IC chip) for protection. A 20 hertz low pass filter is in place to provide better signal to noise ratio of the circuit. In this first stage of the circuit, we have designed in various electronic component circuits to reduce noise so that it won’t be amplified through the remaining signal path. When the audio signal hits the pre gain control potentiometer, the level of the signal that is to be routed through the remainder of the circuit is dependent upon the setting of this control. At this point in the circuit, the signal is routed out of the OUT jack via shielded cable, through the volume pedal and back into the circuit through the IN jack using a second shielded cable. NOTE; When the volume pot is in the fully up position (no sound), the wiper of the pot is sent to ground. When the volume pot is in the fully down position (sound), the signal is then audible through the circuit). The pedal volume pot acts in the same fashion as the PRE GAIN control on the amplifier. The IN jack is of the “normaling” type, which remains closed until a ¼” plug is inserted for the returned signal. At this point in the circuit, additional noise filtering is applied and a 1.56Mhz. low pass noise filter is employed to shield radio frequencies from entering the circuit. In addition, a high pass filter blocks frequencies below 10 hertz.

At this point in the circuit, a second first order high-pass filter blocks DC current into the second gain stage before signal is routed through the remainder of the preamplifier.


This “pedal patch” is exclusive to Peavey steel guitar amplifiers and it works! If you have any questions, please contact me toll free in the U.S. at 1-877-732-8391 or by e-mail at mikebrown@peavey.com

Well, I guess I had this all wrong. When the Nashville 400 manual said run the pedal to the pre-EQ jack, that's what I did. I went from the guitar to the pedal to the pre-EQ jack. I guess that was a two chord hookup, and to the wrong amp jack. So I guess what I'm hearing is that I should go straight from the guitar to the regular amp input jack. Then out from the pre-EQ to the volume pedal and then back into the pre-EQ. I now take it that is a "three cord hookup."

Now here is another related question. I would like to have a clip-on tone control on the leg of my steel. Keith Hilton says not to put that in front of his pedal - and he is right, it sucks off the highs. Mike, do you have any suggestions for how to rig this so the clip-on tone control does not eat the highs?

Thank you very much Mike, your suggestion is quite helpful.
Then ,another question came up. If I go three cord hook up, which type of POT should be better 500K or 10K ?
By the way, I am waiting for the release of Nashville 1-12. Will it be available in Japan also ?

Okay, I played with the three cord pedal patch and my new Hilton volume pedal last night and here's what I found. The three cord patch, running the guitar straight into the amp in jack and the volume pedal patched into the pre-EQ jacks does cut some of the highs you get with the Hilton pedal. If you want all those highs, you don't need the pre-EQ patch for the Hilton pedal. You should just run from the guitar to the pedal to the amp in jack. However, if you like a more mellow tone with less brassy highs, the pre-EQ volume pedal patch can help you get that.

I haven't yet finished experimenting with where to patch in a clip-on tone control so that it doesn't suck off the Hilton pedal highs. From Mike's description above it seems like it might work either patched into the pre-EQ or in the FX loop.

I haven't tried all the possible combinations with my old pot pedal and Matchbox and Nashville 400. From Mike's description it sounds like you don't need a Matchbox for a pot pedal if you run the pedal through the pre-EQ patch three-cord hookup.

Thanks for inquiring about the pedal patch procedure. I don't own a Hilton pedal nor a Matchbox, so you have answered some of your own questions.

As far as where to locate the external tone control, I haven't ever seen anyone use a clip on tone control(but there may be one available). There is a possibility that anything in the signal path can degredate the audio signal and sometimes there is no way around it. I can't really say that I have to readjust tone controls using either the Nashville 400, Nashville 112 or the Nashville 1000 amps when switching between C6th and E9th. But it's not that often that I take a stab at the C6th neck either.

I don't think you'll need the Match Box after using the pedal patch as I understand that the MB is supposed to match impedances?

I went through much of the same masinations with my 7A Matchbox and NV1000. Once I started using the three cable hook up as Mike describes, I sold the 7A. No longer needed.
Impedence matching is the name of the game. With the Peavey system you really don't need a Matchbox.
In my case the "system" sounded much better without the Matchbox.

------------------
Allen Harry
Emmons SD10
Nashville 1000

right.
I thought that using the pedal patch completely eliminated the need for a matchbox.

Thanks for trying the "pedal patch" on your Peavey amp. That is exactly what it is intended(eliminate the problem of impedance mismatching) to do.

Thanks every one for the suggestion and instruction.
Now I decided to go with three cables hook up without Matchbox.
Then, the last question.
I have tried both 10K Pot Volume Pedal and 500k Pot Volume Pedal. My impression about the sound is that 10K Pot gives more linear sound especially on high frequency and 500k Pot makes the sound mild .
It's only my impression.
I would like to have the comment on this.
Which is technically right 10K or 500K ?

Buck I don't know anything about these differences between pots. If you don't get some good answers here, you might want to post the question as a new topic. Also, you could search on this topic and probably find something. Good luck.

Buck,
The 10K pot is in an ACTIVE pedal. It has a battery that drives the same buffer amp / matchbox electronics that are in the Goodrich or Hilton pedals. A cable from the guitar to the pedal to the amp will work fine. The only time I've found any advantage in the three cable system was before I had a matchbox or Hilton pedal. When you're using a PASSIVE pot pedal (like the old Emmons pedals or the Goodrich 120), the pot will 'eat' highs when the pedal is not wide open.


------------------
<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Would the three chord trick work through the 'pre-amp out, power amp in' loop on my Fender Blues Deluxe? or does the Peavy thing involve a special set of electronics for impedance matching.

I have a battry powered Behringer pedal (embarrassed emoticon) but I think its still "passive" in that it doesn't have a preamp, as such, in it (?). I plan to get a proper pedal soon, and I'd value any input before I choose which type.

Jeremy
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jeremy Threlfall on 06 October 2006 at 07:24 PM.]</p></FONT>

OK. Larry and Mike B. explained it well. Let me try to summarize....with your steel and the Peavey steel amps, using a 500K pot pedal and nothing else, the 3 cord patch works well, as designed. The impedance matching of the amp circuits are optimized for this particular setup. You may like it, or you may not, but the fact remains that this was the design intent. I find it works very well only with VERY good cables.

If you introduce any other type of device into this chain, you may cause unexpected impedance changes...you might like it better, or not. You'll have to be the judge. The experimental variations are endless and no one, not even our Guru, Mike B., can predict the results.

The newer Goodrich and Hilton pedals are designed to correct impedance matching when used between the steel and the amp's guitar input. These pedals were not designed to be used in the 3 cord setup. Again, inserting any other device in this chain may, also, cause unexpected impedance changes...you may like it, or not. You'll have to be the judge, again.

Impedance changes, like we're talking about here, equate to tone changes. These are all low signal level and low voltage devices, so no harm will be done with common sense experimentation. If you find a combination that you like, go with it. But, understand that the same setup, using similar, but different devices, will most likely yield different results (tonality).

I hope this helps.

Thanks, Mike. I've read Mike B's long post again and, although I don't fully follow how it works, I get the impression that my Fender's 'pre-out, power-in' patch is not likely to work the same as the Peavey's 'pre-EQ send and return'.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jeremy Threlfall on 07 October 2006 at 12:37 AM.]</p></FONT>

That's right, Jeremy. But, I'd try it anyway to see if I'd like it. The line level signal won't harm the pedal. Good luck.

Jeremy---no, the preamp-out, power amp-in patch points are not at all the same as the three cord volume pedal patch.
And your active pedal does essentially have a preamp in it---its output, if I'm not mistaken, will be of the 'active' nature and would be of the sort (impedance matched) that makes the three cord patch unnecessary. Although this area is thin ice for me, I think this correct.

Well, while the Peavey pedal patch points are designed specifically for that purpose, they are essentially low level preamp send/return points. Some active pedals may have the ability to boost the signal level (re. the Hilton) which makes them even more capable of being used in an actual preamp in/out arrangement.

I don't claim this is the best hookup for an active pedal, only that it is available and that some players might like to try it.

Actually, IMHO, the best setup, from the standpoint of matching impedances, would be to use only the active vol. pedal (Black Box optional) between the guitar and amp input, then use a multi effect box (ProFex or Pod, for example) hooked into the effect loop, or preamp in/out jacks. All the impedances would be correct and the maximum sonic accuracy would be achieved.

Then again, extreme sonic purity may not be all that desireable....it's a matter of personal preference, isn't it??? Thus, the need for experimentation.

The three-cable hook-up for connecting the volume pedal is nothing new, and was not invented by Peavey, Jim Evans offered this feature on the Hybrid 300's back in the 70's, as anyone who either owns, or has owned one will recall.

Hartley and Jim spent time here in Mississippi during the early years of Peavey, so I'm sure that ideas were swapped at that time.