The Steel Guitar Forum

Well I am fast realizing they just don't exist..

Hell i've had a few TUBE amps that didn't have "tube tone".. couple of old 100 watt Traynors and several hybrid MM amps to be exact....sterile sound to my way of hearing things...

anyway, lately I have been reading a lot about the old Lab Series Moog/Gibson amps... I got SO jazzed I went and bought 2 of them!!.. "SO close to a Twin sound", "Better than my tube Fenders" etc etc... Well They are REAL nice amps.. clean tone, nice EQ section..But like several other VERY good SS amps,[Roland JC 120, Tubeworks, Fender Steel King,NV 112,Sessions 400 and 500] I must say, they sound like exactly what they are.. a VERY good quality SS amp... still not "tube like".. I think thatnow that sound will never really happen..
from ANY ss amp..

I really like these amps a lot, but I will be dumping one cheap because I only need one,and jumped the gun a little..bought them right so I won't lose much..

but I really think I will NEVER again look for a true tube sound from a ss amp..

In all my years of trying there have been 2 pretty exceptional ss amps as it relates to true tube like sound in my amp arsenal

. The Roland JC 120, I used one for MANY years, and believe it or not, the little made in USA Fender Princeton Chorus I just sold for $150.. and $42 of THAT was spent on shipping it...duh.. not one of my brighter moves... Both those amps were just as close to a tube Fender clean tone as any ss amp will ever get I suppose. I really do miss them both.. really should hve kept that little Fender.. it was ALL vintage Fender as far as its tone was concerned,truly amazing, just not enough power to gig with....

anyway, I needed a powerful CLEAN SS steel amp that sounds good and these Lab Series will do VERY nicely.. My old Fenders just don't cut it for steel most times, always breaking up etc... but I now realize 100% that there is NO crossover.. ss is ss.. tubes is tubes...never the twain shall meet..... I will end this decades old search once and for all... That L 11 DOES sound big and sweet.. If ONLY it had tubes.........bob

Have you tried a Webb?

<SMALL>My old Fenders just don't cut it for steel most times, always breaking up etc...</SMALL>

So, how can you call them great, then?

Look, if it don't cut it, it don't cut it (in my book, anyway). The best sound in the world is still useless if you can't use it, right? Keeping that in mind, the only 2 Fender tube amps that will cut it for steel, in most cases (IMHO) are the 135-watt ultra-linear Twin Reverb, and the 180-watt Super Twin Reverb. All the rest of Fender's amps are fine amps, they just suck for pedal steel...you're just askin' for something the amp ain't gonna give.

As far as the "tubes vs. solid-state" thing, when you're talking about <u>clean power</u>, I'm convinced that less than 1 out of 100 players could even tell the difference in sound in a double-blind test between a tube amp and a good solid-state amp.

Yeah, IMHO, they're <u>that</u> close.

I dunno Donny, I sure can tell the difference when I am playing them, and I disagree on the Fender amp thing... They DO make great amps for steel.. too much great steel music was made on Fender amps for me to think otherwise... They just have trouble staying clean at crazy volumes..

Today everything is so damn loud, we need 2 200 watt amps to keep up... lots of steel players still use 2 Sessions,,, hell, the Best tone I EVER had was my with my Fender Super Twin and a 100 watt Twin stacked together.. both with d 120's... great sound, but who wants to deal with THAT nonsense at my age!!

I dunno, i am sticking with my Fenders but if my band buds get me too pissed, out comes the 200 watt Lab Series amp... that'll learn em'... honest, I really do think the reason Fenders can't cut it for some players[like me] is just the massive volume we need to play at so often... unless you want to stack em up to the ceiling.... bob

Why not try a Peavey Session 400 and Brads Steel Guitar Black Box?

You get the best of both worlds...SS and tube tone.

Try the SGBB with several Peavey amps including the Nashville 400, Session 500, Vegas 400...

Give it more than a few minutes of testing/trying, try it at home for several days, then take it on the job and try it there. At the very least...both of the combinations I've mentioned are designed for steel guitar.

I get really, really tired of the notion that only tubes can sound good, and that re-creating the "vintage tone" should be the stated goal of every player and every manufacturer. Every advertisement for every six-string pickup, stompbox, amp and guitar seems to talk about the "vintage" vibe - what if I want something NEW, for Pete's sakes? I don't CARE what Eddie Van Halen's phaser sounded like, Electro-Harmonix Big Muffs sucked back then and they still suck, Hendrix sounded really awful live a lot of the time, have you ever listened to the "vintage" guitar tones of Big Brother and the Holding Company behind Janis Joplin? Awful.

I've heard both Chuch Berry and B.B. King playing Lab amps beside some younger, worshipful fans (like Keith Richards and Jeff Beck) and the old guys sounded awful, in comparison - I found myself thinking "somebody ought to tell these guys about better equipment."

Some people had good tone with old stuff, most people didn't. I think it's a lot easier to get good tone these days, because new equipment is more consistent, but you still have to work at it and learn about balance. What kind of tube amps did Segovia use?

You should try a Fender Dual Professional. They are starting to be easier to find and cheaper. Great for pedal steel and causing hernias.

Bob, I've been playing basically the same setup for 3 years now. A good tube pre-amp into the back of a Peavey amp like a 112, 1000, 400, etc.

My problem, and I think yours, is how "soft" the bottom end sounds in an all tube power amp. My pre-amp of choice is the Revelation, but before that I used an Alembic F2-B, and a Mesa Boogie Studio Pre. All three of these units are basically a "Dual Showman" tube tone circuit.

The Revelation and Boogie are 2 space rack units while the Alembic is 1. They are all very light weight and require very little to no maintenance.

Put any one of these units together with a Peavey amp by plugging into the power amp section, and you'll be able to get as loud as you can stand it and still have that sweet tube tone.

The Acoustic Image amps, one of which I use for both bass (acoustic and electric) and steel have IMO a "tubey" feel with both applications. With bass, it has a feel somewhat like a B-15, with a punchy attack and great "thump". The steel sound is warm and punchy as well, but the highs can be boosted a lot without getting harsh. All this said, however, the AA amps are first and foremost high fidelity equipment; whatever goes in will be what comes out. Check 'em out.

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MSA Millennium D10, Acoustic Image Clarus SL-R, Marrs 1x15

Randy.. more and more I think setups like yours are the answer... The L11 Lab Series amp I just bought is 200 watts RMS and you can isolate the power and pre amp sections I believe. I think it will make a fine platform for a tube pre amp....

. I am REALLY beginning to think companies like Music Man and Peavey had it backwards in thier hybrid designs.. A High quality tube preamp into a good clean power output will give more warmth and character than a SS front end and tube output... as long as the preamp is designed to take strong input signal without overly high distortion.....

I think that may be the answer I have been searching for...

I believe VOX has made some late model amps with a tube pre amp, and SS output and they are VERY highly regarded by guitarists ... From what I hear, they are indistinguishable from 60's Vox all tube designs, and are quite sought after by six stringers.....

I intend to look into a tube preamp of some sort for use with these Lab Series amps.....thanks for your input Randy,,, Your opinion on good tone is valued for certain!.... bob

If you could find one try an old ampeg SS-150 they are a nice warm sounding amp that really emulate a tube amp. While they are not an exact replica of a tube amp they have one of the warmest sounds of any solid state I've ever played thru and I have played thru plenty.

Bob

David M., well said. I haven't seen it in print for about 15 or so years, but I remember the steel guitar community appluading the new solid state amps, for their crystal clear, undistorted "ringing" steel notes. Now I know that being "new" technology at the time probably accounted for a lot of the euphoria about the tone of these powerful steel amps, but now it is as if we're throught the looking glass, and what we used to call "distorted signal" now is called "vintange warmth". I echo the above suggestions, get a nice SS amp, and run it through a "good" (not cheap) tube preamp.... best of all worlds. To me, I want "control" of any "warmth" my amp has to give, not have it built in as a default.



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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Hi Bob, Check out some of the Fender SS amps from the 80 s, such as a" Stage Lead"model. They are the closest thing ive heard ,that mimic a tube amp and there loud as hell and very cheap to buy. bob (there lightweight also)

What works for guitar doesn't necessarily work for steel, and vice versa. Now, I still love my Twin and Dual Showman Reverbs, but to play steel with them, I have to use lower-gain preamp tubes like the 5751 or 12AY7, or even lower gain. Otherwise, those steel pickups send them into distortion. But I usually prefer the higher-gain 12AX7 for guitar.

Similarly, it depends on the style being played. Sometimes a crystal clear sound is exactly what the doctor ordered, and sometimes that tubey goodness is what I want. If what I need is true tube honk for blues or a vintage sound, I can't generally get that from a preamp into a solid-state amp. Similarly, if what I need is pure crystal clarity, I can rarely get that from a pure tube design.

I think sometimes we expect too much from an amp. IMO, a single amp can't be all things to all people. That's why I have a bunch.

BTW, I was just in Nashville for a few days and tried a Nashville 112 for the first time at Bobbe Seymour's - I live a long way from any store that would consider carrying anything pedal steel related. I was honestly stunned how clear yet warm it sounded - enough so that there's on its way to me now.

Hey, all this stuff is purely personal taste - and mine routinely evolve.

<SMALL>They DO make great amps for steel.. too much great steel music was made on Fender amps for me to think otherwise</SMALL>

I know what you're saying, Bob, but what cut it decades ago (before screaming Teles, miked drums, and 1,000-watt PA systems) just won't gig today. I used a BF Twin for many, many years, but that was in a band that had a bassplayer with a B-15 Ampeg amp, <u>no</u> miked drums, a lead player with a ES-335 and a Fender "Concert" amp, and a 200-watt Shure PA. Just over 60 watts did fine back then, but I wouldn't ever try to use that amp for gigging today.

'Couple of months ago, I did a side-by-side (in my house) with that old (but re-capped and re-tubed) Twin and my Peavey SC-212. When I EQ'd them similarly, I was amazed by how close the sound was between the two amps. Yeah, tubes have a tonal advantage...in the studio, and in your home, but out gigging? To me, the difference ain't worth losin' any sleep over.

As always, YMMV. But keep in mind, point of view is everything. If the band is so loud you ain't havin' fun, just quit and do something else to make a few bucks that ain't as stressful! (There <u>is</u> a world outside the steel guitar, and endless contention will ruin you, both physically and emotionally. Life's too short, etc., etc..)

Bob, good buddy.

I bought one of Brad's Black Boxes and run it thru either the Vegas 400 or the Evans FET 500.

It really smooths and warms the tone, unquestionably.

I just love it.

Give one a try; I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Chipper

all true Donny... My main problem is this.. With my band[been with them 14 years] I am mainly a guitarist.. ROCK guitar... LOUD rock guitar...steel is secondary.. MAYBE 5 songs on a good night... I have tended to suffer with my steel tone so my guitar would sound good... .. I have now started laying in many different pieces of gear.. 200 watt SS Lab Series head[ NICE amp!!}... 15 in EV cabinet, 15 in Eminence Commonwealth. the suppossed JBL sound alike in another 15' cab..
Peavey Classic 100 tube head, 8 EL 84's!! Fender Princeton ReverbII with 12' EV.. loud and clean as some 50 watt amps..... I AM starting to back away from the vintage Fender thing... I am keeping my 68 Showman head and my Bassman 70 head, but other stuff is on the block including a 1968 40 watt Bassman.. I am getting together gear than can cover all the bases..from Hi watt SS to low watt tubes and a few in between... I'll settle on something... I have a feeling I am going to like the all tube Peavey Classic 100 head.. they are sweet sounding guitar amps, but it should have substantially more clean headroom than an old Fender... we'll see.. I have been spending a friggin' MINT the last few weeks/// Lord help me I LOVE new gear..... LOTS of it,,,,,,, bob

Hey Bob,in an effort to copy Randy Beaver's sound I bought a Tubeworks Rt-922 preamp and a Carvin 160 watt ss poweramp..Sounds good driving 1-15 cabinet..I've settled on Walker Stereo Steel amp and will be selling the pair.They're each one rack space and combined about 16 lbs...The Tubeworks(Herby Wallace used these for years)can switch between clean and dirty channels, also stack both for more overdrive!! Need about $300 for pair..JS

Wow, I'm really suprised by the amount of folks who prefer ss over a fender amp. BUT, heres something interesting, I've been gigging with a 68' pro reverb for awhile now. I just bought a 68' twin reverb with JBL d120s loaded in. Well the wattage difference had a astounding effect. This is some of the best sounds I've had. Those JBLs help a whole lot as well. I'm a young guy now and can carry this around, but in ten years I'll be ready for a peavey......

webbs are nice, nothing sounds tube to me but tube tho<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 07 July 2006 at 10:53 AM.]</p></FONT>

I've been looking for a replacement for my '59 Bassman 4x10. I finally settled on a used Sessionette. With a new Celestion Vintage Plus and a good clean it's killer. The guy who designed it based it on the Bassman circuit, just with solid state instead of tubes. I spent ages on the phone with him talking about how he used to build tube amps, and reckoned he could emulate the sound if he didn't build down to a price.

I'd say he did it! I've been using it with my Gibson 295 (P90s) and the band say I have the best tone I've had. The amp is MUCH more sensitive to the guitar controls and picking attack than I'm used to, but it's a good thing IMHO.

I think they were sold in the US as Award amps. They go for 50-100 UKP used over here, and usually need a couple of pots and a clean. I got mine with a matching 2x12 cab for 130UKP, and I'm totally delighted. And it's LOUD!

Ian

TUBES create tube sound. SS produce SS sound. That being said: POD XT creates a very good tube simulation through both SS and Tube amps. (My opinion has never been very humble.)