MiniDisc vs. CD recorders

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 5 Jul 2005 4:08 am

Hi folks,

I am looking into buying a digital recorder for recording live sessions using a mike (not coming off a mixing board). I see that portable minidisc recorders (Sony et al) are exponentially cheaper than comparable portable CD recorders (Marantz et al). Q: do the full size CDs make that much higher quality recordings? Is it worth spending an additional $500 for one of these or just going with the @$200 minidisc recorder?

Thanks.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, tin can

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 Jul 2005 5:21 am

Hi, Dan,
My hearing doesn't reach as high as it used to, and I don't have the equipment to test frequency response for comparing the two types of unit; but having said that....

I have a portable MD (Sony MZ-R30) that I used for mixdown, and lately have gotten a Zoom 1266 digital recorder, an 8+ track unit that will record 6 tracks at once. It has a CD burner built in, and I think the fidelity of that unit is about the same as the MD. (You can't burn a live disc; you mix down the tracks to two internal master tracks, which you burn to disc.) I was lucky enough to get the Zoom for under $500, and the MD for less than $100.

But if live reference recordings, rather than a finished demo, is your goal, it would be hard to beat the MD for simplicity with good fidelity.

Cautionary tales: I have a small stereo mic that plugs into the MD, but it picks up mechanical sounds from the unit. You'd need to split the input, via a yoke, into two, and use two remote mics, which will improve separation as well.

Supposedly, Sony is not making MD's anymore (or so I hear on the forum), so you'd need to get a supply of discs on eBay.
I also hear that Sony doesn't make any disc recorders at all any more (is DVD the new standard format?), so I don't know what to believe.
With a CD recorder, the finished product can go right into any CD player. The MD can be used to record into your computer, with software, and then burned to CD if you have a CD writer.

Pros and cons aside, I think the fidelity is comparable, as I believe the technology used is pretty much the same.
Hope this gives you something to consider.
Here is a link to a previous thread, from which I've gotten some of my observations: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/007316.html

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 5 Jul 2005 5:41 am

Thanks Charlie. That is all extremely helpful. I will look into Sony and the availability issue. My initial impression was that they are not marketing them here, but that they are very available from Europe (I have family in Germany so that's not as big a problem as it might be otherwise).

Thanks again.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, tin can

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 5 Jul 2005 5:48 am

As the mini disc units are no longer made, I'd consider a hard drive recorder. You can mix, etc and then burn the CD.

If you are buring directly to a CD and anything goes wrong the entire project is trash and not recoverable. With a hard drive recorder, even a smaller less expensive one, if something happens whatever is on the hard drive is still there and you can do what you want with it.

Direct to CD is probably the last option, along with a glitch and the CD is a "coaster" and everything is lost, you get one "big" recording, rather than separate tracks for each song.

Since the mini disc didn't catch on with the general public and is basically history (except for used units), that limits you for live recording (e.g. a small portable recorder for recording at live concerts). Tape is getting scarce too which forces you to some other medium. Even if you have a laptop PC, you still need to "record" to the hard drive, not directly to CD for the same reason as noted before, if something happens the CD is a "coaster".

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 5 Jul 2005 9:49 am

A couple of points to ponder:

1) MiniDisc Recorders and media ARE still being made, just not by Sony, who has dropped ALL disc technology products in all markets. Any Sony machines that you can get overseas are, as in the USA, simply unsold stock. Right now you can buy MD media made by Memorex, TDK and other blank media concerns.

2) CD recorders use a 16 bit. 44.1 KHz sample system. MD is compressed to 14 bits and there is a wee (hardly noticeable, but real) amount of data loss involved relative to CD technology.

3) MD DID catch on with the general public worldwide, only in the USA was it suppressed by the medai conglomerates who didn't want it competing with their existing markets. It will be supported for some time to come by a number of manufacturers, just not by Sony.

HHB's "Burnit" is a very fine CD recorder with a super AD converter, priced around US $600 with a fully professional feature set.

If you are looking for something to use, as Marty is, for a mix reference, rehearsal or archival recording, or simply personal listening of re-recorded music, MD is really great. If you want to make professional quality recordings that you can copy and share, by all means go with CD technology.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 05 July 2005 at 10:55 AM.]

Val Gethers · Post by **Val Gethers** » 5 Jul 2005 10:31 am

Question. First, please excuse my ignorance, but I'm at the point in my playing (2 years) where I want to hear how I really sound from an unbiased source, ie, tape, MD, CD, PC, etc. Not wanting to spend $300-$500 just to hear myself play, what would your suggestions be. Also, is everything miked, ie rhythm tracks from stereo speakers along with my amp. If so should the unit have two input jacks, and just split one jack in order to record both stereo spkrs that are playing rhythm tracks. Also would like to be able to transfer to a CD. Maybe I just answered my own question, but I really don't want to spend that kind of money on a CD player/recorder just to hear what I really sound like. Am I making sense or rambling to much. Thanks all.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Jul 2005 10:33 am

I want to hear how I really sound from an unbiased source

Ummm Val?
I'm sitting here listening to my MiniDisc recording from last Wednesday nite and all I can say is; be careful what you wish for.

Val Gethers · Post by **Val Gethers** » 5 Jul 2005 10:39 am

Marty, agreed. But it's just that one gnawing question, what do I really sound like to people other than my wife,relatives and friends. Does everbody go through this or is it just me.

Val Gethers · Post by **Val Gethers** » 5 Jul 2005 10:42 am

Also, according to me, my ear is the most unbiased to me I've ever heard. Therein lies the problem.

Val Gethers · Post by **Val Gethers** » 5 Jul 2005 10:52 am

One more time. Sorry Marty, I missed your endorsement of the MD the first time around. So, if I found one cheap enough , say pawn shop, recycler newspaper, etc. etc. I should go for it?

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Jul 2005 11:14 am

Bill Myers · Post by **Bill Myers** » 5 Jul 2005 1:53 pm

I've got a recording deck here somewhere. If you are looking for one, I'll make you a good deal on a mint one!

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2003 Carter D10, 8x5 Black and 1998 Carter D10 9x5, rack mounted amp and cabinets

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 5 Jul 2005 2:03 pm

Thanks Bill, but I really need a portable unit.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, tin can

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 5 Jul 2005 6:30 pm

I will add here that, no matter how much cheaper it may appear to be, DO NOT purchase one of the consumer CD-Burner machines (the ones with a player side and a recorder side) - they will only work with "music" CDR media, which are significantly more expenseive than regular "data" CDR's.

This is not because the media works any differently (it doesn't) but because the media cost includes a substantial fee to ASCAP to cover the rights to "their" music that they assume that you are ripping off!

"Music" CDR's have an ID bit implanted to tell the recorder that royalties have been paid and it's OK to record now. Pro recording decks ignore this feature and work just fine with either media.

Remember, every valued customer is a potential criminal!

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 5 Jul 2005 6:39 pm

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 6 Jul 2005 5:13 am

Sony DOES still make and sell MiniDisc players in the U.S.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start?CategoryName=pa_DigitalMusicPlayers_MiniDisc_HiMDWalkman&Dept=audio

I, however, would opt for a nice Sharp model from overseas. Check out Planet Minidisc or Minidisco....they usually have some that are priced better than the Sony equivalent.

Joe

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 6 Jul 2005 5:23 am

Also check out the Edirol R1 at www.edirol.com

It's a new unit that records directly to media cards, and it's very computer friendly for downloading and burning CD's. I just got mine so I'm still experimenting, but so far I'm real pleased--very user friendly IMO. These are hard to find as the demand is greater than the supply, but I lucked out by finally found one in stock at Portland Music.
DD

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 6 Jul 2005 8:56 am

I stand corrected, Joe, my distributor tells me that Sony has dropped all their pro gear, but they are still going strong in the compact consumer market, as your catalog link demonstrates. I see that the prices have taken a dive as well, that's progress of sorts.

Still wish I could find another affordable MDS-E10 rackmount MD unit, maybe on eBay....

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 6 Jul 2005 11:40 am

Minidisc seems a dead-end media to me. I'd avoid it.

The hardware based digital recorders like Edirol are numerous. From low cost, and way up.

As mentioned above, here's a price for Edirol http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=R-1

Zoom makes this one. http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=PS04

Roland makes these http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=BR900CD

ALternately, get a USB audio interface to your PC or MAC, and a mic. and just record to your laptop PC. http://www.bswusa.com/promo.asp?promo=69

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Chris Kennison
Colorado

[This message was edited by seldomfed on 06 July 2005 at 12:43 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 7 Jul 2005 7:37 pm

I was lusting hard for one of those Edirol R-1s for the past 6 months but you just can't get one. The money finally just wore a hole in my pocket and I got an Apple IPOD with 20Gig drive.One of the best moves I ever made because I now LISTEN to more music than I have in years. But back to recording - There's a whold world of add-on and aftermarket gadgets for the IPOD including some recording interfaces like these:
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?

Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=201526&pcount=&Product_Id=169368
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/italk/index.php.

You can plug a stereo mic into the Griffin unit as well.

I got this one to record rehearsals and such.Its mono but for my purposes it's fine.
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=201526&pcount=&Product_Id=158384

Recording to an IPOD of course is gonna give you MP3 audio which I used to scoff at being a recording engineer but it really sounds pretty good - especially if you were considering an MD recorder. If you already have an IPOD this is one way to go. You may need 3rd party software to get your sound files off your IPOD if you are using a Mac. PCs can do that trick easily.I think myriads of hi-fi stereo mic interfaces for the IPOD are right around the corner.
-MJ-

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 7 Jul 2005 10:23 pm

There is a used Sony MD deck for sale on the forum right now at $90. http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum17/HTML/002553.html

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 7 Jul 2005 10:36 pm

The DENON DN-M2300R Dual Minidisk Recorder has to be the Cadillac of MD Machines. I've used Sony and TASCAM MD Players, and they're okay, but I've had failures with both at one time or another. The DENON is a rock. Seems like every DENON product I've purchased has been reliable.
It comes in 2 sections - the 3 space control panel and the 2 space dual transport panel. As the pic illustrates, they don't have to be right next to each other in the rack.
It has many great features and it's "user-friendly". One thing I like is the copy feature. You can copy one song or an entire disk, titles and all with one push of a button.

For live performance with backup tracks MD is the way to go imo - and for simple live recording it works fine too.

RA

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 8 Jul 2005 6:12 am

I had a Zoom MRS-4, and the smart cards was one reason I switched to a larger unit, and a reason why like MD. Too many smart cards, so little room.
Yes, Sharp makes some nice units; you can read reviews at Music Central.
If a cheap unit, to record live session, is what you want, MD has the greater bang for the buck.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 12 Jul 2006 5:33 am

I have been using a Sony minidisc recorder for years now for recording my practicing
as well as for my gigs. The sound quality is awesome for such a small device. If you decide to buy one then make sure you get
the model with the red colored mike input as this is the only kind that will take the
T-shaped Sony microphone that Sony sells
separately. The small T-shaped microphone
is the best mike to use.Worth every penny!

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 12 Jul 2006 6:08 am

Many of us thought the Minidisk format was dead, but Sony and some others are still hard at it. There is an upgraded format for Minidisk called Hi-MD. It's still a minidisk, but it holds much more data on a single disk. The newer units can record at CD quality (PCM) rates and resolutions. This brand new unit is the cutting edge of Hi-MD minidisk.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SONY-MZ-RH1

They not only have pretty decent mic preamps in them, but they record at multiple formats and also connect to a computer, PC or Mac, via USB cable for direct data transfer. The disadvantages that I see for these new Flash memory card units is that the media is very expensive.
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/microtrack-killer-edirols-r09-portable-sd-audio-recorder-151306.php
http://namm.harmony-central.com/SNAMM05/Content/M-Audio/PR/MicroTrack-24-96.html

The idea behind these is great, no mechanical workings, all solid state RAM based memory. But if you want to record say an evening at a steel show at high quality audio rates, you'd go thru a few hundred dollars worth of memory cards to do it. Where if you had the Sony Hi-MD, you may use up just a few $7 minidisks.

I've been watching this new technology lately because my 5 year old dropped and dented minidisk recorders are less reliable than they once were. Plus the typical minidisk audio format is not the greatest. I haven't made the move yet, but I'm leaning toward this Sony MZ-RH1. If the memory cards come WAY down in price, then it'd be hard to beat that Edirol or M-Audio unit.

Brad