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Topic: Fender amps "cutting out" when bass hit? |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 3:02 am |
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I have an ODD problem,,
For years and years with about 15 different Fender tube amps, they cut out when the bass player hits a note, or the drummer hits his bass drum..
Now, my band plays so unreasonably loud that its absurd,so I am wondering why the other guitarist and his Marshall or the keyboard man with his 200 watt SS keyboard amp NEVER had this problem...
For 12 years in this same band, we had another guitarist/fiddler with a Tube Works 120 watt amp that never had a problem either...
What happens is this..
When we are playing at gig volume, many notes the bass player hits, as well as the drummers bass drum, which uses a trigger and runs through the system bass bins[2x18] will decrease my amp volume by about 80%...
just like someone was at the amp turning the volume off every time the bass drum was hit, or certain bass notes played.. right in time with the notes...
It renders my playing useless at times.. You can not hear solos or even rythmn chords... I might as well not even be there..
It does NOT happen every night, or even on every song, a lot depends on the song played,the volume its played at,WHERE its played etc... This is something I have dealt with since 1997 on and off..[since 1992 with this same band] we have had two different bass players both using 400 watt amps... This drummer has been with us since 1998, ans I don't recall the bass drum causing this problem before that time... All of this started when the original bassist started using this huge Kitty Hawk amp w eight 5550 power tubes... it continues with the new bassist and his high powered ss rig..
I wonder what this could be???.. I accept it and basically just try to do my best to get through the night when it happens.. Sometimes its a minor inconvienience, sometimes its uncontrollable and I just stop playing,sometimes it doesn't happen at all.... It happens with any Fender tube head I use 40.80,100 or 140 watt... I am wondering if I should pick up a high powered SS head??.. any thoughts as to what could be happening here?.... bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 3:40 am
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Bob, what't happening is that the bass amp and miked bass drum are sucking all the power from the house circuit. They play a thunderous note or riff, and wham...line voltage drops about 20%, at the exact same instant you're trying to put out a little power, too. (Bass, by the way, is what takes real power. Mids and highs take very little power to reproduce.) You either have to get on another circuit, or you have to get one of those Furman power regulators. It might also help to have your amp checked out. It may need to be re-capped, and maybe they could put some larger caps in there, as they will help to "carry" the output of your amp when the power dips.
The reason it's not noticed on the lead amp is simply that he only needs about 20 watts of power to reproduce those searing, screamingly-loud highs.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 June 2006 at 04:41 AM.] |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 4:11 am
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Donny.. I doubt its the amp, as it happens to ANY Fender I use... and there are NO problems anywhere else[with realistic volume levels] when using the same Fender amps.
Its all about the THUNDEROUS bass... I figured it was a line voltage drop of some sort, I just DON'T understand why the Marshall guy is not affected... Maybe it is better able to deal with the voltage drop than the Fenders..
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Tough situation when it occurs..
I have tried using a different line.. usually doesn't work... The dives I play are NOT using good modern wiring I would bet...sometimes there is just no where else to get power from and I take what I can get lol...
For certain it IS all about the bass.
EVERY loud bass note, either from the bassist or the bass drum through our PA system, drains my amp big time... frustrating...
thankfully it is NOT every night, but still enough to aggravate the hell out of me... bob
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Michael Garnett
From:
Seattle, WA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 4:41 am
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Bob-
What you have described is a classic case of what Donny diagnosed. The bass and drums hit together, loudly, and it sucks an extra amount of voltage and current from the circuit just to get those big woofers going to make the desired amount of SPL that the sound board and amp settings have asked. There simply isn't enough juice left in the line to keep the power tubes hot, and your amp runs out of gas. Running at that reduced voltage is very hard on everything on that circuit, especially the power tubes in your amp. You're basically submitting the amp to a bunch of tiny brown-outs through the course of the night.
It seems you have 3 options.
1.) Just deal with it, try not to let it bother you, and get paid the same.
2.) Go to your fellow band mates in a respectful manner and kindly explain to them that "Loud doesn't equate to good." If you're playing gigs that are small enough not to provide good power, you're probably loud enough with the bass' stage volume to blow the back windows out, meaning that you probably only need a little bit of kick and some vocals in the mains.
3.) Quit the band and find some guys that are willing to play at lower volumes so you can be heard, which will make your gear and ears last longer. Unfortunately, if the bass player won't turn down and the sound guy won't take some initiative to reel the sound situation in, you're not going to be satisfied, and it will keep happening.
-MG[This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 05 June 2006 at 05:45 AM.] |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 4:44 am
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First of all, QUIT THAT BAND!!!
Second, where do you put your amp? I was playing through a Twin, at reasonable volume, except for the drummer's thunderous right foot. My amp happened to be on the drum riser, and that kick was forcing my speaker (1-15") forward. I moved the amp, and turned up a number or two---Just to get even!
Third, and most importantly, QUIT THAT BAND!!!! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 5:14 am
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Bob - it could very well be exactly what's been mentioned...
..or it could be something a little more unusual, but very possible. The bass drum is subject to the same thing since it runs through the bass cabinets. If the polarity is reversed on the speakers in the bass cab setup, there could be a huge phase cancellation. This essentially "kills" the note.
Try whichever is easier - switching polarity on one of your amps or the bass player's. If the same thing happens, I default back to the current draw previously mentioned. If the problem goes away, it's a phasing issue - and since all your amps *should* have the same phasing, it would be likely that the bass amp is the culprit, and needs the speaker wires swapped.
Give it a try - it's simple enough to do. I've had it happen a few times, mostly with bass players using rack equipment with outboard cabinets. And the wire swap did solve it.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 June 2006 at 06:15 AM.] |
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Curtis Alford
From:
BastropTexas, USA 78602
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 5:21 am
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| A bass guitar player can with loud volume, totally destroy the sound. Bass notes cancel out what your ear hears. Different frequences you may not hear yourself, when the bass note hits it covers or cancel out the frequence you can hear.Most musicians that have played many years and persons who's work is with or around loud noise for prolong periods of time,loose their range of hearing to some frequences.This is the cause my ear doctor gave me for not hearing the same things you decsribe in your band. |
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Robert Leaman
From:
Murphy, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 5:30 am
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| This is a classic case of intermodulation distortion. The system and/or speaker(s) are not capable of complex sound reproduction when large low frequency signals are injected. It is extremely doubtful that the sound systems lowers mains voltage significantly. If that were to occur, most likely fuses or circuit breakers will operate since current overloads sufficient to significantly lower mains voltage is more than enough to operate fault devices. Do a web search on intermodulation distortion. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 6:14 am
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Bob - it's true that a number of things can cause the general symptom that you describe, but the only time I've ever really noticed that type of behavior is when the house circuit is being overloaded. The fact that this has occurred for a long time with a variety of amps also makes me tend to look in that direction.
I realized I had to come to terms with this problem when my rockabilly band was playing a festival on a large pontoon platform on the Susquehanna River in Harrisburg. The platform was just offshore, the crowd on the banks, and they ran a single long power cable from onshore to handle both the monitor system and our backline. Every time the bass hit a strong note, my amp about turned off. I had a voltmeter with me, and measured the line voltage - every time he hit a note, it went down to about 80 volts - yikes. We made some adjustments to the overall volume and somehow got through the gig, but it sounded bad no matter what we did.
At my next club gig, I checked the voltage when the bass player hit a strong note. It sagged measurably - nowhere near as bad, but it still affected my Deluxe Reverb's tone adversely. For one thing, it played havoc with the bias voltage - I have a bias meter hooked up permanently to a replacement back panel - the bias voltage dropped a bit, and the quiescent current draw increased enough to dirty up my tone in a big way.
Very shortly thereafter, we had a gig with Los Straitjackets - we were talking about the problem, and they showed me their Furman AR-1215 voltage regulators. I used theirs that night, and oh man, what a difference. I went out and bought one right away. They're not exactly cheap (I think around $350-400), but that completely fixed my problems. Especially for steel, where we want a nice clean tone, I consider something like this mandatory.
My Pod into solid-state amp isn't as sensitive to this problem, but the Pod will freak out if the voltage gets too low. In general, I think it sounds better with the regulator.
Of course, this doesn't deal with the issue of your band playing too loud. They are probably routinely overloading the house circuit, and from what you've been describing in the other thread, they are probably also overloading the room acoustically. I know it may be, more or less, spitting into the wind, but I would try to reason with them about this. Check the voltage with a voltmeter while they're playing. Just do it during soundcheck and make sure it's fully cranked when you check - it's the effect of the whole band cranked up where this is noticed the most. Encourage them not to hold back. 
I'm not saying it couldn't be something else - intermodulation distortion can be an issue. But I'm not sure that, by itself, necessarily explains why the sound coming out of your amp alone is bad.
As far as the mains not being affected by the load your band presents, I agree if it's a professionally done sound system with a professionally tapped mains supply. But I have measured voltage sag in many clubs when the band hits it hard. Sometimes, it's just a normal 15-30 amp circuit supplying the whole thing. The issue is that those bass peaks may not shut the system off, but cause sag. Of course, I have been in bands that threw circuit breakers. I wish that happened more often - they might get the message. [This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 05 June 2006 at 07:21 AM.] |
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 7:22 am
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Bob, the filter caps in the amp power supply should sustain the voltage during brief line voltage drops.
You might try installing new power supply caps. It wouldn't hurt to increase the value of the caps. You probably know that car audio installers put big caps across the battery leads, for this very purpose.
A solid state rectifier might help also.
Since the problem occurred with different amps, this may not help. It is a possibility.
------------------
www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 11:05 am
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As always good advice from my buds on this site.. however, WHY is it just me???... The Marshall guy doesn't use a Furman. nor does the keyboard and they don't seem to have any problems... The bass player does use a Furman and HE sucks all the power..LOL..The old guitar/fiddle guy used a Furman with his Tube Works and he never had a problem...
I asked the bass player if I could plug into his Furman but he won't let me...
The ONLY constant it seems is the Fender tube heads I use exclusively... Some of these amps were capped and tubed and in otherwise great shape... I do NOT have this problem anywhere but at band gigs...and yes, we DO trip breakers.. on a CONSISTENT basis....no joke...
NEVER had this until that big Kitty Hawk bass rig came into the back line and we got a drummer with a BIG foot and lots of triggers... Did not seem to happen as much with a miked bass drum..I noticed it soon after the Kitty and triggers came in...I thought maybe the new bass player and his SS rig would not suck as much power, but it still happens.. as always, the louder the volume, the worse the effect.. I am THIS friggin close to getting a Session 500, and oven mitts for each ear!!...nah, wouldn't do that... I think... I guess I just don't understand why no one else has this problem in the band... Maybe the Fender amps are jut more susceptible to this voltage dropping thing.... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 05 June 2006 at 12:08 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 12:32 pm
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Bob, I think that you're not hearing it from the other instruments because they're not sustaining like the steel does. The problem isn't unique to Fender, or tube amps. I experience it quite a bit with my solid state Peaveys, too. Since the bass is thunking in heavy, the keyboard is probably playing notes on the high end, and as I said, high-end stuff takes very little power. A tube amp also also has the characteristic of using more standby currect (due to all the filaments), so you may indeed notice the problem more on a tube amp.
Also, keep in mind that when the Fender amps were designed, there were no 300-500 watt bass amps, sub-woofers, or 500-1000 watt PA heads, so the problem with lowered voltages wasn't nearly as common as it is with today's "megawatt" band gear. Back when I started, the old B/F Twin-Reverb was considered a "high-power" amp, even though it only had 60-70 watts output, and the bass player was happy with 40-60 watts! Even the Shure "Vocal-Master" PA which came out in the mid-60's only had 200 watts, and thet was about the king of PA amps at the time. Most bands used a 50-75 watt Bogen system 'til the '70s.
Then "loud" became king.  |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 1:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| however, WHY is it just me???... The Marshall guy doesn't use a Furman. |
Of course, Donny is correct that cleanly amplifying a sustain instrument with a lot of low end is more difficult when the power sags.
But, additionally, a screaming, distorted Marshall isn't going to sound much different with the lower voltage - in fact, some Marshall players use a Variac to deliberately lower the voltage to get - so they say - "sweeter" sounding distortion.
Another possibility is that you may be the only one on the same circuit with the bass player - I've seen stages with different circuits at different spots. Try finding a different circuit.
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| I asked the bass player if I could plug into his Furman but he won't let me... |
The fact that the bass player is using a voltage regulator exacerbates any voltage problem you might have if you're on the same circuit - if there's a loading problem, he's gonna win every time. He's right to make sure he doesn't overload his Furman. But I have used mine for two 50-100 watt guitar amps and a 350-watt bass amp. The fuse ratings totaled about 10 or 11 amps, no problem for the AR-1215, and I doubt we were actually pulling that much.
Larger value filter caps in your amp can help, but it's possible to overdo this, IMO. Plus, are you going to do this for every amp you use? I find the Furman a better solution, for me, so I got my own AR-1215. But, IMO, you should try one to make sure it actually fixes your problem before you shell out that kinda dough (I see they're around $450 now). Maybe, if the bass rig isn't really too huge, you could get the bass player to let you try it for a bit to see if it helps. Maybe? Esprit de corps? All for one, and one for all?  |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 3:23 pm
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| Bob---QUIT THIS BAND!!! If the bass player won't even let you TRY a piece of gear, he AIN'T your friend, and not worthy of your time and effort. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 5:51 pm
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| Dave.. $450?? forget it... For less than that I'll buy a Session 500 or a BIG Music Man head and "beam" it right across the stage.. THEN lets see who cuts out... I'll keep my Fenders and use them where they are better suited... The hell with this crap... I'm getting something REAL damn LOUD.... bob |
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Dave Van Allen
From:
Souderton, PA , US , Earth
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 6:43 pm
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| get two. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 6:45 pm
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Bob - what you are continuing to say leads me to think even more of phase cancellation.
That's why it's "only you".
Take one of your amps and reverse the speaker leads. See what happens. You'll know pretty quickly. It's worh a shot and costs nothing to try. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 5 Jun 2006 7:45 pm
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It costs nothing and can't hurt to try reversing the speaker phase. Different instruments through different amps are not usually consistently phase-coherent, but it can happen. Usually I find speaker phasing problems when the same instrument runs through a single amp with reversed speakers, or the same instrument runs through separate amps with reversed speakers.
$450 was the cheapest I saw for a new AR-1215, including shipping. I saw a couple on ebay with starting bids of $275, no idea about the reserve. Also saw used ones online for $250-300.
You know that I'm a tube amp lover, but this is exactly why I have an LTD 400 and Session 500. My SOP is to sit my main amp (tube or Pod-ized Ampeg) on top of a Peavey - either one of mine or some places I play keep a Peavey bass amp onstage that I Pod-ize. Normally, I keep the Peavey pretty quiet, but if I need it, it's there. In quiet mode, it subtly adds nice bottom end, but if it gets crazy, I have power to spare.
My only worry is that IF the problem is that the bass player is hogging all the power, even the biggest SS amp may not really fix the problem, as Donny says. But you have a lot of things to check out before you conclude that, IMO. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Jun 2006 1:32 am
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just get a Marshall Stack and be done with it already..
let those other guys in your band deal with it for a while..
heck..get two stacks....
t |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2006 10:25 am
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Put bigger capacitors in your power supply cicuit. They need to be big enough to store the juice during those transient dips in voltage.
And like John Daugherty said, a solid state rectifier will help too. It will give you punchier headroom, and it won't fail for lack of supply voltage.[This message was edited by b0b on 06 June 2006 at 11:29 AM.] |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Jun 2006 1:51 pm
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Dave..I was thinking that the CRATE amp was a fake..when the video first started ..
NOT..!!
It reminds me of Back to the Future !
600 watts..16 /12's..
that should pretty much take care of Bobs problem... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2006 4:17 pm
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| My Fender stage amps all have SS rectifiers.. The heck with changing the caps... I am going to buy a screaming loud powerful SS amp and jump into the mix running... bob |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2006 8:16 pm
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| Bob - check the phasing before you spend the money. Jim Palenscar and I talked about it today and it seems the most likely problem...and it's free to fix. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2006 3:56 am
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Jim ..I understand phase cancellation and have dealt with it a few times in the past.. This is almost certainly voltage drop..It only happens when the band is LOUD... no problems at practice or on somewhat quieter songs..some amps do NOT experience this problem, with the SAME speaker cabs I have been using for years... I had a Traynor head and 2 Music Man heads, ,,, NONE of these amps experience this problem.. Its the older Showman, and Bassman heads mostly.. anything older really..
My conclusion is that I need a different power unit for gigs... maybe SS... I still say those incredibly LOUD bass guitar and bass drum "boomers" suck the voltage down ... I need something thats NOT susceptible to this "power suck" problem... The old Fender amps were not designed for this ,as Donny stated.... bob |
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