The Steel Guitar Forum

Hello All,
In my post in "pedalSteel" Buddy Emmons informed us that he has Lawrence 710's fitted in his new Emmons,
I tend to pay great attention to what the Big names are using.
Until now I have had single coils in my guitars,I would welcome any comments for or against single coil/humbuckers.
I have ordered a Zum SD10 and (as yet)it will have stock pickups.
by the way what pickup does Bruce put in his guitars?
Best regards
Billy

I like the sound of single pickups the best. Ive got Truetones in my MSA legend and had single coils in my old Sho-Bud and Emmons. With the right setup and EQ I suppose any pickup could sound good and of course sound is a matter of personal preference. I like a mellow tone and prefer to get it by adjusting my setup rather than using humbuckers.

I have run into a problem recording lately though. It's sometimes hard to eliminate all the hum induced into single coil pickups and it can be difficult to eliminate from the recording later unless you have advanced notch filters or signal processing. I've gotten around the hum problem by orienting my guitar in a favorable direction and adjusting the amp input gain a little higher.

Greg

I loved the sound of L710's in my Sho Bud professional. A huge improvement over the stock Sho Bud s/c pickups, but I found the 710 to make my Emmons P/P sound tinny. The single sounded better but noisier. If I had the scratch to buy a Zum, I would get the stock single coils with the guitar. You can always swap in a humbucker later. I think Buddy Emmons just got a Zumsteel, not an Emmons.

Thats a REAL tough call between Lawrence 710's and regular single coils. They both sound great but as stated above, depending on what guitar (and amp) you are using the results may be different. Its really up to personal choice.

Again it depends on the guitar, the player and what the player wants to hear.I love the single coils.I like the 710's. But I'm loving my 108=N's more and more for a LeGrande.

Single coil pickups hum, a lot. If you can control your playing environment at all times, it's not a problem. If you start telling bar owners they have to turn off their neon beer lights because they upset your guitar, it's a problem. Enough great players have used enough humbuckers for long enough that I have to believe it's possible to EQ your way out of most perceptible deficiencies. Have any of these pickup guys (Lollar, Wallace) tried the "stacked" single-coil approach yet? It seem like it would be a good way to retain the focused field of single coils yet keep down the noise - maybe it's a patent issue?

The main thing I find wrong with most six-string humbucking pickups these days is that they're way overpowered. If you turn them down to 7 or 8 the sound clears right up. I think some manufacturers let you choose your ohms.

David wins Bingo...

This conversation often has many state that they love the pure Single Coil tones, and so do I.

But then those that gig often and at odd ball places join the fray and pretty much just state they are using HB'es now because it eliminates all the anxiety of showing up to a joint and having to deal with HUM and such...

I had True Tones on my Carter, loved it..great sound..but yanked them off..and replaced them with GL Eons..One of our regular rotation gigs is the room ( stage) from the land way down below...The George L Eons, sound great, perhaps not as bright as the Single Coils but they are fine to my ears. Still Bright with a strong bottom end.

I spoke with two other players that play this same room..they both said..

"Welcome to the Humbucker club"..

" We've been expecting you " !

Now I do have the stock Single Coils in my Legrande,and It's safe to say I will NOT remove those...It's not a primary gig guitar so there is no reason to make the change.

My Tele' playing little buddy bandmate tells me I play totally different on that Guitar..

But he never actually said if it was better or worse ..

t

------------------
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="3">------------------
TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
</font></font>

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 May 2006 at 04:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

I was closed minded to humbuckers. I loved the sound of my single coils and thought that anyone who wasn't playing them was missing out on the best tone they could get. Sound familiar? What I find odd about my 'closed mindedness', is that I played Lawrence 705s in my old lacquer Zum for 10 years and preferred them to the single coils.

When I ordered my SD-10 Zum I knew I already had some extra single coils around so I thought I'd try a 710. After all, I had heard how good Lloyd sounded with one. Now, I have put 710s in my D-10. Once again, I prefer them to the single coils.

I'll also add this, they are not for everybody. A 710 is a bright pickup, and not everyone has the control with their hands to handle the highs. That may sound like an absurd statement but I believe it to be true. Sure you can just back off on the treble setting with your amp, but it's not the same thing. What I'm referring to is being able to pick the string in such a way that can add fullness to the tone along with those highs. Then you can really take advantage of a pickup that has an "extended" frequency range. (I'll probably get flamed for this.)

------------------
Randy
click here

I just spent the last nine months playing and recording with a Sho-Bud, stock single coil. Last night I played a full gig on a Legrande with 710's. Completely different sound than the single coil. I found that the humbuckers would break up when I really dug in, whereas the Sho-Bud would stay sparkly clean no matter how hard I played. Also, I had to adjust my playing to accomodate the lively high-gain sound from the 710's. I understand what Randy is saying in this regard. They're very "in your face". I feel more comfortable with the the single coil sound. I'm no pickup expert, but I know what I like on stage. When my Carter with George L's arrives next week, it will only take me one gig to know whether or not Truetones will be taking their place.

Chris, you can lower the PUP in the cavity, and that will give it a tad less PUNCH..

Totally agreed that the GL's, 710's etc are DIFFERENT than the Single Coils..and you do whave to change what you do a tad to COMPENSATE..

I have dropped my EONS down just a smidgeon..seems to make a difference to my ears...

Oh geeze, theres that COMPENSATE word again...

It's kinda like the Fender VS Gibson thing..

We would raise the Single Coils as high as we could without interfering with the strings..
and we would possibly lower the HB'ers on the 335's or LP's if they were driving or breaking up to early...<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 May 2006 at 12:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

Randy -

I have heard that are different versions of the L-710 pick ups - some with windings at 30,000 ohms and some with less ohms and a resulting tonal difference. Can you expand on your knowledge of that subject?

I also heard that some of the very early L-710 pick ups also used different magnet material and were super bright.

Thanks.


------------------

I put a 710 on my P/P. There were some places I'd play where the hum would be almost as loud as the notes and it got really annoying. There IS a characteristic of single coils that is missing with humbuckers, in my opinion. I don't know how to describe it but my ears know the difference. The notes just seem to 'ring' more. I missed it at first but now that I've messed with the EQ and my ears have gotten used to it I don't think I'd go back.

I put 710's on my first guitar, a LeGrande II, and I loved them then, too.

Rick, there are 4 different versions of the 710 that I'm aware of.

The original version used stainless pole pieces and had a reading of 29.5k to 30k on an ohm meter. This is the one I like best.

The second version also had stainless pole pieces and read 26.5k. This one was brighter that the original.

The third version was called the 710-8. It had stainless pole pieces and had a reading of 16.5k. I've heard it will peal paint!

The fourth and so far final version has alnico 5 pole pieces and has a reading of 18.5k. These are the ones Buddy and Lloyd likes.

The ohm readings I've taken aren't suppose to matter or be accurate according to Bill. He takes his readings in "henry" which from what I understand is a reading from an active loaded pickup, rather than static like ohms.

Bill and Becky have plans to someday re-release the original version. To me it is as close to a single coil sound as I've heard.

At the moment, I have an Emmons 19,500 ohm single coil in the E9th neck on my '79 D-10 Zum lacquer and love it. I have also used PF-1 that I like also...for now, the Emmons single coil is my favorite on my Zum and have no problem with excessive hum etc.

In the distant future (the designer and I are not on a timeline, but the ball's rolling) I'll have a stacked, active P-90 style "single coil" (not really because it's stacked, but you know...) for a lap steel build.

I'm quite looking forward to hearing it and seeing if there's a bigger place in the steel world for active pickups.

Billy -- I have a slightly different combo on my Zum, I have a BL710 on the C6th neck, but a BL910 on the E9th neck. This is a slightly fuller sounding pickup, and not quite as bright as the 710 --- for my preference it is just spot on for E9th. The 710 is deadly on the C6th neck though. The 910 has just one row of pole pieces, but is still a humbucker.

There seems to me to be something missing with humbuckers. The upper-mids and high-end just don't sound as sweet as those of a single coil. At least to me.
I played 5/6 nights a week for twenty+ years with my Kline, and I can't seem to recall ever having a problem with hum.

Hey John , bring that guitar of yours down to Salisbury and join us on stage..


Your 20 year run will come to an end..just like mine did !

t<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 May 2006 at 04:55 PM.]</p></FONT>

Hi Billy,

I think that if you don't experience hum at the places you normally play, a single coil is a great choice. If you do play in places that have "hum in the air" a humbucker can be your friend. There is one recording studio that has such a bad magnetic interference field that I can hardly play on anything quiet with a single coil. Even a humbucker hums a small amount but it's acceptable. Personally, I can't imagine putting humbuckers in my '65 wraparound PP. So I reserve the single coil steels for places I know will be "hum friendly".
TC

Hi! Billy, I'm glad to hear you ordered a Zum. I have owned at least 10 Zums and have tried just about every kind of pickup in them. I always go back to the single coils. Bruce has been using the Wallace TT pickups in his guitars lately. I have one in my 05 SD-10 standard changer, which I will be selling shortly, and I have a hybrid comming this week which will have Walllace pickups in it. You can always try another type of pickup later, but I would have it shipped with the TT's. If Bruce prefers them, they must be good.

Hi T.C.
Still loving my/our Zum D10,the C6 neck will always be a problem for me I guess you can't teach an old dog etc.,
hopefully I will get my new Sd 10 at Dallas.
Maybe I'll see you there.
Morton,nice to hear from you I trust you are well and look froward to seeing you again.
Thanks everyone for the info.
Best regards
Billy

Tony, I think that the Kline just might be well sheilded. I played in places where my Tele buzzed and hummed like crazy, but the Kline was quiet. There was one place where I couldn't get my sound right no matter what I tried. During a break I used my VOM and found the voltage to be 87VAC!
Again, I think it was the Kline just don't hum! The old Shobud did though!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by John Billings on 22 May 2006 at 12:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

I couldn`t had much to the comments already posted but I will add my vote/ preference for humbuckers. I`m using Bl710s in my Emmons and XR-16s in my Carter.
Hook

------------------
www.HookMoore.com

I'll also add this, they are not for everybody. A 710 is a bright pickup, and not everyone has the control with their hands to handle the highs. That may sound like an absurd statement but I believe it to be true. Sure you can just back off on the treble setting with your amp, but it's not the same thing. What I'm referring to is being able to pick the string in such a way that can add fullness to the tone along with those highs. Then you can really take advantage of a pickup that has an "extended" frequency range. (I'll probably get flamed for this.)

Randy
I don't know why you think that you would get "flamed" for this statement ....I totally agree with you .... My problem is that my hands are not as good as they should be , and I DON'T have the control that you speak of , but it's coming along .... There are only certain humbucker pickups that I can live with as I think that most of them while being quiet , have a sterile, lifeless tone to them .... Humbuckers are essensial for a lot of noisy rooms when playing live, but have a lot to be desired for tone and harmonic content ..... Again , this is just my opinion, and yours may differ .... I seem to get better harmonics, and better tone from single coil pickups than I do with humbuckers .... I would rather work on possitioning my amp and my pedal steel to get things as quiet as possible with single coils, and put up with a little bit of noise rather than have the tone deficiency that I get with humbuckers ...Of course this may have a lot to do with the control I have or don't have with my hands .... There's a lot going on here , and I'm glad you brought up the control issue with the hands .... I think that it's overlooked by a lot of foiks , and I think that various pickups make up the diffference in some of our definciencies in control .... This may be the reason why many different people use many different pickups .... I think too that it all goes back to the fact that the hands are what creates the tone and timbre, and the pickups are merely tools to help shape it .....Again, just one man's opionion ......Jim

BTW the early BL 705's are one of the ONLY humbuckers that I can live with ..A ClapTrap is another ....The Dimarzio that was built for the Sierra was another KILLER pickup !..... <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by James Quackenbush on 23 May 2006 at 07:46 AM.]</p></FONT>

I'm surprised that no one in this thread has mentioned that the 710/712 pickups were intentionally designed bright to sound good with pot volume pedals. With the Hilton and other active pedals, this extra brightness was not needed, and Bill Lawrence recommends the 910/912. So you really need to specify which volume pedal you use when you are commenting on how a pickup sounds to you. Of course, for anyone who likes that extra brightness, even with an active pedal, the 710/712 is a great choice. I had one on a Fessy and was able to use it with my Hilton pedal because the pedal has a tone control that allowed me to back off the highs a little.

Of course picking style is a big factor. Picking close to the changer is brighter, and picking further down the neck is darker and richer in overtones. It seems to me it makes as much sense to find a pickup that fits your picking style, as it does to adjust your picking style to fit a pickup.

------------------
<font size="1">Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards