Old Tone vs. New - How do they do it?

Steve Howard · From: High Ridge, Missouri, USA

When I listen to older steel recordings, I hear a much dryer tone. A tone that I can reproduce very easily with any guitar amp and new strings. However, the newer stuff is just so "smooth" and is very difficult to recreate. Now, I know the "tone is in the hands" comments and I do agree somewhat, but Jimmy Day, Buddy Emmons and Doug Jernigan where all pretty good players I would say. What is it they are putting in the effects chain to make that glassy smooth as silk sound?

Also, a more specific distinction, as every steel player here has probably covered "Don't Rock the Jukebox", how is it you get that tone? That is different than the glassy tone I'm talking about but I hear it on many recordings.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Contributors to the 'older / vintage sound':
Tube amps (a Twin was the industry std in the 60s)
Preference for a 'cutting' tone with a lot of high end
Single coil pickups wound to 15K or even less
Stylists like Ralph Mooney and Lloyd Green
Fewer effects available -- usually only amp reverb or the occasional Echoplex

Newer sound would more often use
Solid State amps (Peavey, Webb, Evans, etc) -- Peaveys are pretty much the industry std today
Preference for a 'fat' tone
Humbuckers or beefier single coils
Players like Paul Franklin with more of an ear toward jazz and rock
More frequent use of effects

These are all just preferences that have evolved. Most pro players today seem to prefer a less edgy sound. Buddy Emmons once described the tone he achieved on a classic tune (may have been 'Touch My Heart') as one that would 'blister a beagle's ear at 100 yards'. Many players who used a biting, trebly tone in the 60's have backed off in favor of a fatter sound.

[Edit]
I just noticed you mentioned a song Franklin played on as an example of the earlier style, so I'll attempt to explain that one. Alan Jackson, Dwight Yoakam, and several others are known for a vintage sound. Being a master player who has played in the top bands and in the studio with EVERYONE, Paul knows how to use his hands to achieve more of an 'old school sound'. Picking closer to the bridge and using a lot of bar slurs and licks reminiscent of earlier times can create that 'older' sound.

Hope this helps some.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 31 March 2006 at 12:47 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I agree pretty much with Larry. Pickups today are fatter and smoother, and studios today have far more types of delay, chorus, and reverb, which can all be very subtly combined to give that "glassy-smooth" sound.

P.S. Some of it comes from playing technique, too!

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Just my two cents, but it seems like the recording and mixing techniques used for pedal steel are very different these days compared to the 60's and 70's. I hear a lot of compression on the steel in today's radio singles. It sort of flies in and out of the mix but never really grabs you like Lloyd with Charlie. Also, the choice of reverb is endless today, whereas the 60's reverb was pretty much spring reverb from the amp -if the player bothered to use it at all. Pedal action is a lot smoother on the newer steels too, making the changes sound very clean and swift. And the tuning of today's steel can be dead-on, in contrast with the older pedal steel's tendency to be a bit "moody".

That's just my observation on it. I'm a fan of the older sound - that's why I own a 'Bud.

Ben Slaughter · From: Madera, California

Larry knocks your question out of the park.

But I'm confused, I certainly don't think of PF's work on the "Don't Rock the Jukebox" record as the "old school" sound. In fact, to my ears, that tone is quite the opposite of say, BE, on a mid to late 60's Ray Price record. The tone on that entire "DRtJb" album is rather dark and smooth, and I think subsequesnt PF works are actually a little brigher.

Did you mean "DRtJb" as an example of "new" or "old" tone??

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

To my ear the tonal differences are of a more practical nature.The mixes are so much more dense and complicated on the pop country stuff that the role of the steel in the mix is different. I think if you could hear the steel parts solo you would hear a healthy dose of good old tube warmth adding harmonic color and a touch of compression.

If I understand correctly Paul Franklin often uses one of his older wood neck steels to get a more suitable sound for the AJ stuff.
I have been playing tons of Mooney/Waylon tunes these days and trying to get that maniacal Mooney sound and vibe right is messing up my head ! If you find it very easy to reproduce that sound let us know how you do it.

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Bob
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Ben,
I think of DRtJB as at least an homage to an older style. Another element I left out in the 'old vs new' list was that single string playing was rare in Nashville country in the 50s-70s. You heard it in western swing a la Murphey but most country stuff was often two or three notes at a time. One exception was Mooney but he never played like anyone else anyway -- in his choice of notes or his overall sound.

That was before 'speed picking'. A lot of fills and, particularly solos on medium to uptempo tunes these days are one note at a time.

The only rule is there are no real rules, only tendencies and stylistic preferences that may or may not be typical of a given player. When I refer to an older style or sound it's not necessarily the Buddy Emmons / Ray Price sound. Remember that Jimmy Day with Ray Price during that era was very different, both stylistically and EQ-wise.

I think Paul brings back an 'older style' vibe on a lot of Alan Jackson's recordings, as he did with the recent Martina McBride album.

Also, the point about studio EQ is well taken. As ensembles grow and frequency range available for the steel to use shrinks, the tone gets squashed pretty bad in the process. Paul has mentioned several times here on the Forum how often he hears a different tone from his part in the final mix than it sounded when he laid it down.

Now Mooney is a totally different thing. No bottom end on your EQ and play lots of 7th chord oriented licks -- or just cop the stuff note for note and do the best you can to get the right feel and tone using EQ and picking right over the pickup.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 April 2006 at 08:16 AM.]

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

Studio grease, there's a lot of that in the mix too and then there's the mastering of the work as well that comes down to smoothing out the eq's. That's not to take away anything from the players tone, that's the foundation.

I think Martina McBrides "Timeless" CD is one case study of current playing and tone delivered using the true and pure classic recording form. I'm sure there are others...

Steve Howard · From: High Ridge, Missouri, USA

Thanks for all the comments guys. I have always thought that with the new country stuff I seem to hear a more compressed steel sound, but from about a year ago on this forum I brought the same type of question up and was told it was pretty much a steel guitar "no, no". I think that I hear compression, chorus, and probably an amp that is suited for a steel (like mentioned above), but I may mishear things.

The Don't Rock the Jukebox question was really a different question that didn't have an "old - new" comparison. I just hear this tone on several songs (especially from the 90's) that to me is not the "glassy-smooth" sound. DRTJB to me has a real different tone than the normal PF stuff, but he has done other recordings with that tone too. I actually use a boss Eq pedal and do the frequencies so each susequent frequency is totally opposit. (up, down, up down) and that kind of gives me a dobro effect I use for all my dobro impersonating. When I hear DRTJB, i almost hear that cross between dobro and steel sound and was just curious how they create it. I"m blabbering now, sorry. The tone on that song just sounds different to me than the norm.

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

I think the biggest difference is definitely what they do with the steel tracks in the studio these days. A long while back I posted a question to Buddy Emmons wanting to know about his equipment on a particular favorite recording. His reply was very revealing. The jist of it was that although he could pretty much guess at what equipment he had used he thought what happened in the studio had more to do with the sound than his equipment. Mr Emmons referred to his sound on another recording and said he had tried unsucessfully for years to recreate the sound live.
This makes a lot of sense when you consider that the average steeler has a few thousand dollars worth of equipment to build his live sound with. Today's recording engineers would have how many bucks worth of gear at their disposal to fine tune a recording.

[This message was edited by Bill Miller on 01 April 2006 at 01:32 PM.]

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I mentioned this some time ago, and no one really answered. Didn't Mr. Buddy use an Orange Squeezer" for awhile? I seem to remember seeing pics of him with the Squeezer plugged in to the guitars output jack. Anybody????? JB

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

John,
Yes, I remember seeing Buddy use a stompbox compression unit in years gone by. There was a time when that poppy, overcompressed (what I like to call 'compression as an effect'), plus phase shifter sound was a cool (but dated) sound that he, Phil Baugh, and Danny Gatton (among others) used often.

As far as the studio is concerned, I'd doubt those 70s-80s stompboxes had enough signal to noise to use for recording, but I could be wrong. Buddy?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Larry, tha Squeezer was built to be plugged right into your guitar's jack, so, although it's a stomp-box, it's not exactly a stopmpbox. Went before the volume pedal, which seems to be the only logical place to put compression. I've got a Squeezer here, and it came with instructions about how to reverse a couple of wires so you could plug it into your amps input jack. Strange little device. Maybe I'll have to post a question to BE.

[This message was edited by John Billings on 01 April 2006 at 11:06 AM.]

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Orange Squeezer http://www.tonefrenzy.com/effects/dan_armstrong_orange_squeezer.html

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

As has already been pointed out, the studio has a big contribution to the raw sound of the steel. Digital mixing, compression, mastering, etc. etc. all play a very significant role in creating the "glassy smooth as silk " sound you refer to. That may the single most important difference between what was recorded 40 years ago and what has been recorded in the last 10 years or so. If you get an opportunity, compare a raw mix before and after a professional mastering to see what I mean.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

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