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Topic: Adding A Horn To Get Better High End Response |
mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 11:44 am |
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I wanted to throw this open for discussion. As I continue to find the "ultimate tone" I feel that I have gotten closer than before with a new speaker that I just bought.
Here's the logic..I feel that the frequency response of a steel and all the wonderful overtones that it produces far exceeds the capability of any single 15" speaker out there. I always love the sound that I get when I play the steel through the board directly or off any of the preamps that I have owned over the years. The sound through the Mackie monitors is suberb...however it goes away through my Stereo Steel with the JBL's that I use. I just cannot find the same timbre that I get through the console. Yesterday, I had a brain storm and decided to try a JBL speaker enclosure used more for PA work than musical intruments. It is a JRX115. At Guitar Center, they give you 30 days to try stuff so my buddy Gary Peaslee helped me demo one at home and the two of us AB'd the setup between just a 15 JBL and this setup which is also a 15" JBL with the horn.
WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!.
That is what I have been looking for. The overtones come through and as Gary so aptly put it. "It really expanded the sound of the steel". Some of you may think that the sound will be too thin, but for me it just sparkles all the way across the sound spectrum.
Something for you all to try....
My shields are up  . And seriously I am always ready to listen to any suggestion that may get us better sound.
Regards,
Mark T.
An addendum,
It should be noted that I am not inferring that the Stereo Steel is an inferior system. Quite the contrary, using the LO Z outputs to my console requires the LEAST amount of processing that I have ever needed in the past. The point is that a JBL by itsself does not render then same tone that I get through the preamp direct to the console. This speaker is not huge (I changed the wording). It is a little on the bulky side, but it is worth it to me for the sound that it produces.
M[This message was edited by mtulbert on 23 September 2005 at 02:03 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 12:25 pm
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Hmmm?
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| ...so my buddy Gary Peaslee helped me drag one home... |
Maybe that's why we won't use one! 
Wanna try something really neat? Hook your amp up to an SP7X! That'll really rock yer sox! Big sealed enclosures often use tweeters to bolster the highs that these cabinets usually lack. Since sealed cabs are much more efficient, we're usually impressed with the sounds.
Heavy though!
Many years ago, I built a ported enclosure for two 15" EV-SRO speakers. I used JBL blueprints, and constructed it all from 3/4" OSB, with 2"x2" bracing throughout. The sound (even without a tweeter) is simply awesome. At 5' high and 110 lbs., though, it's a little rough to lug around...even with wheels!
There's nothing wrong with using tweeters, but it's hard sometimes to get a uniform balance across the range between the lows and highs. If they work for you, use 'em, but watch your ears! |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 1:20 pm
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| Try a little Radio Shack piezo horn. It requires no crossover and the impedance is so high the amp is not loaded at all by it. Done it many a time and it sounds good. Got the idea seeing Bill Lawrence using his with a Super Reverb (in his demo room) in St Louis many years ago. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 1:24 pm
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I run my Stereo Steel unit to a pair of JBL G730's (12" speaker and horn).
I A/B'd them with a pair of 15" JBL loaded cabs, and decided to pass on the the cabs and run with the G730's (about the same size and weight, fwiw).
Also makes a great setup for running both steel (through the main steel channel, with stereo effects), and a mixer through the L/R Aux in's.
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 23 September 2005 at 02:26 PM.] |
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Al Terhune
From:
Newcastle, WA
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 2:05 pm
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| Is it the Peavey Reno that has a horn along with a 15" black widow? |
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Dave Ristrim
From:
Whites Creek, TN
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Posted 25 Sep 2005 6:19 am
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If a horn is your cup of tea, great. But I can't stand the sound of a horn for any live music application except for acoustic amplification. Just doesn't do it for me.
Carry on,
Dave |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 25 Sep 2005 9:40 am
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I'm with Dave. There is a reason why guitar and steel amps have not used flat full-range systems with tweeters for half a century. Unlike acoustic instruments, these solid-body instruments with magnetic pickups have too strong highs and weak lows. The big 10-15" instrument speakers compliment that by being inefficient for the highs and emphasizing the lows. The hollow bodies and sound boards of acoustic instruments do the same thing. A vibrating string, with no acoustic sound box, is almost nothing but highs.
Having said that, you can get used to anything. When you go directly to the board, within the limitations of your pickup and preamp, you get the full spectrum of sound of the vibrating strings. It has an acoustic type sound to me, as if your steel guitar wasn't a solid body, but had a sound box like an acoustic guitar. I guess if you get use to that and like it, you might as well just play through a PA, or use a hi-fi amp with full range speaker systems. Actually, this is what modern bass guitar rigs are. These days they either have multiple 10s, or 12-18" woofers with tweeters. I have tried lots of bass rigs for pedal steel, and never liked any of them.
A guitar or steel speaker is not meant to be a flat full-range system. It is meant to give good tone by counterbalancing or complimenting the synthetic sound of a solid body and magnetic pickup. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 25 Sep 2005 2:09 pm
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To the two Daves,
Thanks guys for your input. You have given me something to think about. What you guys say certainly is logical, but I can't figure out where my shortcomings are when I am just using a musical speaker only. I guess it is me, but I have never gotten close to the tone that I hear in my head without some type of support on the high end. Could it be lousy technique on my part? It's a loaded question, but my goal is to be as good as I can, and I appreciate all the input that I get on the forum.
Thanks again for the input.
Mark T. |
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Dave Ristrim
From:
Whites Creek, TN
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Posted 25 Sep 2005 7:08 pm
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Mark, go with what's in your head, not mine. Trust me me, just because I don't like, doesn't mean it isn't good or doesn't have it's place. Some of my favorite musicians have done very unconventional things to get their sound.
I, personally never really liked a horn on any of my electric rigs. Go for it, if that's what you are going for.
Dave |
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Joe Shelby
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2005 9:27 pm
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I recall in the late '70's seeing Danny Gatton using a Cerwin Vega enclosure with a
large horn it. He was temporarily based out
here (Santa Cruz), working with Larry Hosford. He was playing a sunburst Emmons D-10. Not sure if he played the black Les Paul
he mostly played that night through this setup. Marty Muse and I played in the opening
band and I don't think one of us got a good tone out of any of the rigs we were using.
One of those nights, I guess.[This message was edited by Joe Shelby on 25 September 2005 at 10:28 PM.] |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2005 10:49 pm
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My take on this is that if you like the sound of your steel through the board through the studio monitors, you will love the sound of a cabinet with a horn. I personally can't stand them. I played for a couple of months through a borrowed cab with a horn, and while it sounded OK for the clinically clean sound, any time I drove the amp at all, it sounded like crap, and if I was going for a full blown rock and roll sound, it was really harsh and buzzy sounding. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.
------------------
www.tyack.com
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Dave Ristrim
From:
Whites Creek, TN
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 4:07 am
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Like I said....
 Dave |
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Bill Simmons
From:
Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 6:26 am
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| The only time I like a tweeter ($2) in my amps is for electric/acoustic guitar but not for the steel...too bright for my taste...I used an old Aphex bass unit(very little)on my amp many years ago, but felt once the band kicked in my tone got lost and made the high end a little 'hissy sounding too thin on the high end. [This message was edited by Bill Simmons on 26 September 2005 at 07:35 AM.] |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 7:27 am
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Ever since the tweeter was born, people have avoided tweeters for electric guitar (and steel guitar). The pickups are by nature excessively bright up there and that's why a low-fi speaker has always been the standard approach for guitar. A guitar speaker will gently roll off those crisp highs allowing the more musical harmonics to come thru. 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 you'll find a guitarist (or steel guitarist) using a speaker without a tweeter.
Even Mesa Boogie with their Studio Preamp had a recording output for when going direct. That output has a circuit in it that removes all frequencies above 5kHz emulating a guitar speaker and preventing the studio or PA tweeters from passing any of those crisp highs from the guitar thru. I've often heard those highs referred to as "non-musical overtones".
I can only imagine the high frequency hearing damage that would result from extensive use of a tweeter on steel guitar.
Brad Sarno |
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Webb Kline
From:
Orangeville, PA
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 8:41 pm
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But, if you are sending a DI to the mains, you will eventually be going through horns anyway--at least in most cases.
Having had a lot of good feedback on the sound of my steel this past summer on gigs where we used a big PA with horns, I decided to try one of my Mackie SRM450s which is a bi-amped 400 watt system that uses a specially designed, 12 inch speaker that resonates as low as most 15's and even 18's and is powered with a 300 watt amp. The horn is powered by a 100 watt amp. It sounded terrible running direct into my board, but by using my Pod in conjunction with it, I have to say that it is quite impressive. More power that I could ever use and a very nice tone. Of course the Pod does the overdriving if I need it, so that's not a problem.
I haven't tried it live yet, but I think I will this weekend to see how it works out. I think that the trick is that the Pod takes care of the amp and cabinet situation and does so in an environment in which it was intended for.
Clearly, one's result is going to be contingent on many variables, including preamp, wattage, etc. |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 10:45 am
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Webb and friends,
The various virtual amps out there like the POD or any of the other Virtual tone preamps that are out there, are designed to work with full range speakers, and NOT just with plain woofers like we generally use for guitar or pedal steel .... I know that if I like the tone I am hearing from my amp is good, I play better ....If that takes adding a horn , so be it ....If that mean's playing standing on my head , so be it ...
Choose what YOU think makes you sound better, and it will make a better player out of you .....Jim |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 11:55 am
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Mark, here are Paul Franklin’s thoughts on direct to board versus miked guitar speakers. He was discussing the situation for recording in a studio, but the same reasoning applies to playing a live gig.
quote:
I prefer an imperfect amp situation to the cold sound of a direct signal and I have been in a multitude of these situations throughout my career and I have exhausted all of the known direct options… The Mel Tillis live album used a direct along with the amp. At the mixing stage we hated ALL of the direct lines for the guitars fiddles and such.
It all comes down to personal taste. I hate the way a direct signal plays with the dynamics of the attack of the string and I realize others opt to record direct for the simplicity of isolation, That's their preference, not mine. A speaker in the worst situation allows the note attack to breath before going through the mic to tape. A direct signal simply goes straight to tape and bypasses the ear/mic. There's no substitute that compares to the air and mic in front of a speaker. Having air around the note is the way our ears hear musical instruments. I miss that variable when its taken away.
Switching the subject to playing a live gig, I said:
| Quote: |
| Theoretically, with a multiband EQ you could make the board duplicate the guitar speaker voice. But I wouldn't have a clue how to do that, and would have to play with it for hours. And what would the point be, when I automatically have the tone I want through a speaker I have carefully chosen? |
To which Brad Sarno replied:
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| I don't think there's any eq in the world that can re-create a speaker voice. Speaker voicing isn't just an EQ curve. It's full of dynamic compression that's different at different frequencies, it's got bass damping, the paper is full of distortion and phase anomolies out the yin-yang, air is moving, and more. Those are just some of the reasons a speaker is so musical and colorful sounding. |
We’re just discussing this as you requested, not trying to tell you what to do. Paul and Brad and everyone says you should feel free to do whatever sounds best to you. This question of direct into the board versus miked speakers, for recording or playing live, is an interesting question that has come up many times on the Forum over the years. About a year ago there was a thread where someone provided some sample tracks of several different mics for recording steel. For comparison there was a track that was direct in to the board. I guess I had never knowingly heard solo steel recorded that way. It was very unique sounding, and completely different from the several mic samples. Because of the extra high overtones that we are not use to hearing through guitar speakers, it sounded to me like someone had made a pedal steel with a hollow acoustic guitar body. Hearing solo steel like that was very interesting, but very unique. I’m not sure how well that would sound in a complete mix.
Now you may think that recording through the board in a studio or playing live through a PA are completely different from playing through a full range speaker with a tweeter. But I don’t see the difference. In all three situations you are attempting to capture the full range sound of the pickup through a full-range, flat-response speaker system. That full range flat frequency response that you are attempting is the very thing many players find objectionable for guitar and steel. For an acoustic instrument or voice, yes, but not for a solid body instrument with a magnetic pickup. The vast majority of players and amp designers over the years have preferred the special tone given by instrument speakers.
Yes, if you mic your guitar speaker and play it through the PA (or studio monitor), you are playing through a tweeter in the PA speaker. But if the sound starts with a guitar speaker, there is very little high end stuff going to those tweeters. The flat-response PA speaker system is simply faithfully reproducing the more limited frequency range and special sound of the guitar speaker.
A POD or other amp simulator is a completely different situation. The amp and speaker model of the simulator has already reproduced the limited range special sound of a guitar speaker. You don’t need to run that through another guitar speaker. You want to run that through a hi-fi flat response system to exactly reproduce the modeled tone.
A related problem is the use of headphones. I practice at home going direct into a small mixer with a phone jack. The highs and mids are shrill and harsh, and I can’t get any good bottom. I solved the problem by first going into a POD XT with a Twin Reverb 2x12 simulation (I’d use a 1x15 simulation if POD provided it). That sounds pretty good. Some amps provide a headphone circuit that rolls off the highs and boosts the bass to accomplish the same purpose.
It just seems to me that, anytime I play guitar or steel directly into a full-range, flat-response speaker system, the highs and mids are too shrill and harsh. But if your ears like that, then buy or build yourself a system with a tweeter. It’s YOUR ears you have to please.
[This message was edited by David Doggett on 29 September 2005 at 12:56 PM.] |
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Webb Kline
From:
Orangeville, PA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 3:53 pm
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David, I think your appraisal is spot on. I certainly don't like the tone of plugging directly into a full range system. On the other hand, I agree that this is exactly what amp modelers where designed to be played through. Thus, one would more than likely find less than desired results from using a Pod between a guitar and a conventional amp such as an NV 112 or a Steel King. Really, why would you want to duplicate something that already sounds great? I think a lot of guys have the wrong approach and/or misunderstand the purpose and function of the Pod, thinking that it is like an effects pedal.
If you already have a good amp and want to enhance it, you'd be much better off to invest in one of Brad's Black Box's and then add the effects pedals of your choosing such as distortion, overdrive, phasers, compressors, etc.
Boy, this got off topic huh? But, I think we are closer to answering the question about using a horn. It seems that it would be beneficial if you are using an amp and speaker modeler, but not if you are using a good guitar amp. My experiment with my Mackie powered speaker seems to affirm that notion.
New technology is forever making us think outside of our boxes of preconceived opinion, that's for certain.  [This message was edited by Webb Kline on 29 September 2005 at 04:54 PM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 10:07 pm
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| Right, a POD amp/speaker simulation needs a very high power clean, full range system. I tried using the POD XT Twin Reverb model through my NV400. It sounded fair at low volume, but as the NV 400 got up in the volume range where it was straining, it began to sound more like a stressed NV 400 than a Twin Reverb. The Line 6 Vetta head that is designed for the POD simulations is a very clean 300 watt solid state amp. A powerful PA with good speakers should work good with the POD models. I play through a POD XT, but I play into Fender tube amps, and don't use the amp/speaker models. I just use the effects. It's like having about 20 stomp boxes of all types. I only use the amp/speaker models going into my little mixer for headphones. I guess if I ever ended up without an amp, I could use the POD amp/speaker models into the board. But that would be my second choice. A real guitar amp and guitar speaker is my first choice. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 3:36 am
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Whew.........
You guys have given me alot to think about. I am already re-evaluating the horn theory. I acquired an equalizer and was able to add a little more top to the JBL only cabinet and so far this sounded good to my ear and seems to blend in with the tracks and the band.
The Horn speaker will go back to GC. David, your comments have been a big help and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond on such detail and depth.
I will continue my request for the ideal "tone" and see where it takes me.
Thanks all,
mark T.
PS Any other comments etc...keep em coming
M |
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Kerry Johnson
From:
the Bay Area, CA
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