Behrenger tube "scam"?

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 20 Sep 2005 8:13 pm

wow... http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 20 Sep 2005 9:53 pm

If they're running this as a low-voltage "tube warming" circuit, I can see why they'd do that from a marketing standpoint. Not very honorable from a purist standpoint, but apparently the low-voltage circuits do work (Aphex mic pres, for instance) but not the same way high voltage circuits do. I have an Ultragain 2200 and it actually holds up very well, even AB'd against a Millenium. Surprisingly good sound for so cheap. I could care less about the tubes if it sounds good, and it does.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 Sep 2005 2:07 am

Although I don't consider Behringer "top line" equipment and they do a lot of reverse engineering (copying), consider the Blue Tube II "tube" preamps. They have a 12AX7 in them run at a very low (14.75 volts) plate voltage. Most of the preamp is really solid state op amps.

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 21 Sep 2005 2:27 am

Well wrong is wrong,if they are in any way misleading the public it is wrong. Unfortunately in today's market this kind of marketing ploy is very common.

Take food advertisements on TV have you ever purchased a Subway sandwich that looked like the one on the ad?

Subway claims that there is the same amount of meat on the sandwich in the ad on TV that there is on the ones you buy at their stores.

Closer looks at the marketing ploys shows that on the TV sandwich they strategically place different pieces of veggies to fluff up the meat to make it look like a bigger sandwich.

That is the same thing that Beringher is doing and in my opinion it is not only morally wrong but legally wrong as well. Any time you intentionally mislead someone it's wrong in my eyes

)

Bob

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Sep 2005 3:48 am

well..is the tube on or off ?

I can see that the LED's are on..but I guess we need to know..

is the TUBE actually on ?

and regardless of price or value..it is marketed as a TUBE preamp...

or is the tube kinda like one of or new Automobile Spare tires...

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Sep 2005 4:36 am

Have you guys seen the new Takamine on board acoustic guitar preamp with a tube in it? It's called "cool tube" or something like that. It runs the tube at 3 volts. That starved voltage thing runs rampant in today's marketing of cheap audio gear. If it says "tube"on it, it sells.

Brad

Post by **Joey Ace** » 21 Sep 2005 4:50 am

Very interesting. I suspect the tube is working in the circuit, but not hard enough to give the "look" the consumers want.

So the engineers added LEDs to give the look.

This is not unusual. The new Fender Lap Steel, described here, is designed to look like it has the classic boxcar pickups. As the photos show in that link, it really has a Strat style pickup, hidden under the boxcar plate.

Are they frauds? Close call but I'd say no.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Sep 2005 6:01 am

I have to chuckle at this. You see, the "tube freaks" (no disrespect intended) seem somehow impressed by that warm little glow. (One manufacturer actually called tubes "glow bottles" in their ads!) It seems to give the same sort of cozy feeling you get from a fireplace, right? At any rate, those little preamp tubes don't give off much light, so I guess they felt if they "augmented" it a little, it might impress someone, and no doubt it does. I doubt they modified the heater voltage much, since the cathode has to be red-hot before it emits electrons properly. The plate voltage is a moot point...you don't need hundreds of volts on the plate if you're not asking a tube to do much. In fact, there's some tubes that will work just fine down to 5 or 6 volts on their plates.

Tube-heads are being classified by a lot of people now almost as "eliteists", and as most of them seem to really gloat over the "snob value" of tubes, I think there'll many more such ploys.

Sure, I have some tube amps, but in most respects, I really don't think they're that big a deal. I'm probably alone in this, but I think the folks who constantly yammer "tubes are the best!" are about as irritating as those who constantly yammer "push-pulls are the best".

Until you get your skills in the class of someone like Buddy or Lloyd, all this tube and push-pull nonsense is just that, nonsense. It ain't what you play, it's how you play it.

You can't "buy" the sound, you have to make it!

Blake Hawkins · Post by **Blake Hawkins** » 21 Sep 2005 6:30 am

I agree with Donny. Consumer vacuum tubes haven't glowed that brightly since the 1920's.
You can barely see the heater of a 12AX7A when it is on.
It makes for a nice display and proves that there is actually a tube in there.
I don't see any fraud here...just creative design.
Blake
[This message was edited by Blake Hawkins on 21 September 2005 at 08:13 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Sep 2005 7:57 am

I think the author has been just a irresponsible and misleading as Behringer. He insinuated that the tube might not be used, or might be very low voltage with little effect on the tone. He is writing as an expert. Why didn't he simply measure and tell us what is really happening with that tube? In responses to two followup letters, he still failed to measure and give us a definitive answer to his insinuations. Those letters also pointed out that Crate, Roland, and possibly others used display lights behind their tubes. Apparently it is becoming common practice, and Behringer simply copied the idea, which is one reason they have the low prices we all love.

I have no knowledge of this particular tube preamp. But I like the sound of tubes, so much so that I am willing to put up with the extra maintenance and weight. Sure, I will never be as good as the top pros; but why shouldn't I want to sound as good as I can for myself. I would play through tube amps even if I never left my house. I just like the way they sound. I don't feel elitist, since I buy all my tube amps used, at lower prices than new solid state gear would cost. Somehow I think it is way beyond being an elitist trend when every amp ad and review in Guitar Player is for tube equipment. The masses have spoken, and tubes give better guitar tone. Steel is more of a challenge for tube amps. But there are warm and clean tube amps out there; and using head cabinets helps with the weight problem. Sure I will always need more practice. But playing through my sweet tube amps gives me more incentive and helps me enjoy the practicing more.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Sep 2005 8:13 am

Can't someone just yank the tube out and see if the unit still works?

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Sep 2005 10:09 am

Hey! Tubes are the best. And so are push/pulls!

Brad

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Sep 2005 10:18 am

Bobby. You probably could yank out the tubes and it would still work. Many of the starved voltage tube units only use the tube circuit along side a solid state circuit. The tube's may be running, but they're running way out of their real linear range and are pretty much being used as distortion generators. They can generate some even ordered (tubey) distortion harmonics and so they just mix some of that tube dirt in there to call it a tube device. Personally I'm insulted by that mentality.

I enjoy the sound of properly run tubes. What many people don't know is that most albums released today and for decades past have been mastered thru tube gear. It's the very final stage that a multi-thousand dollar or a multi-million dollar album goes thru. Typically a tube compressor and sometimes a tube equalizer. Also, many of the microphones we hear on high dollar pro recordings are tube mic's. The sonic benefits are undeniable, and we hear it almost every time we listen to the radio or a CD.

Brad

David Ip · Post by **David Ip** » 21 Sep 2005 10:32 am

This guy has no idea what he's talking about. I bet he thinks the tube is like a light bulb, the brighter it is, the harder it's working. Fact of the matter is, Blake is right: a 12AX7 with the correct heater voltage will barely light up. And the 12AX7 NEEDS to have the right heater voltage (12 or 6 volts, depending on how the heaters are wired) otherwise the tube won't work, period. Whether you put 200V on the plates or 9V, it will glow with the same brightess.

If folks would actually listen with their EARS instead of their EYES, life would be a whole lot simpler. Then Behringer wouldn't need to put silly LEDs behind their tubes.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Sep 2005 12:47 pm

Yea, it seems like he was just assuming that the tube wasn't glowing itself because of the leds behind it shining much brighter than the heaters in the tube. I bet Behringer is at least running the filaments at or near 6.3v (or 12.6 depending). The question is more about the plate voltage and the tube biasing. That surely can't be determined by the glow factor. I bet if he looked carefully he'd see that the heaters in the tubes were actually glowing too. Behringer has a few pretty impressive designs, regardless of how cheaply they build them or who they stole them from.

Brad [This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 21 September 2005 at 02:19 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Sep 2005 2:08 pm

I think we all agree the test should be with the ears. If it sounds better, who cares if the tube isn't working? If it doesn't sound better, who cares if it is working? That author's review doesn't mention this. His review is worthless.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Sep 2005 2:18 pm

The thing I'm real interested in is this Takamine "Cold Tube" deal. They have a 12AU7 onboard these models of acoustic guitars. They supposedly run on 3 volts and the battery or batteries last about 24 hours. The tube's heater doesn't even heat up as I understand it. Now to me this sounds like the biggest joke yet. But David, you said it. If it sounds better, it sounds better, no matter how they pull it off. I really wonder what Takamine is doing in there.

Brad
http://www.takamine.com/?fa=cooltube

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 21 Sep 2005 6:49 pm

Sure, I have some tube amps, but in most respects, I really don't think they're that big a deal. I'm probably alone in this, but I think the folks who constantly yammer "tubes are the best!" are about as irritating as those who constantly yammer "push-pulls are the best".

I must be really irritating then along with others.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Fender Twin, Hilton pedal, Jag Wire Strings

[This message was edited by Craig A Davidson on 21 September 2005 at 07:51 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Sep 2005 6:50 pm

Yeah, if it makes that acoustic piezo quack sound better, I'm for it.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Sep 2005 6:56 pm

A tube that doesn't even light up?

What good is that?

What's next, a push/pull that doesn't even push or pull?

Seriously, though, the 12v. filament of a 12AU7 is center-tapped (to run at 6v.), so the cathode might start to emit at half-voltage (3v.). Although I've never done experiments in this area, it seems all the tube would have to do is provide unity gain (talk about loafing!) to add the proper "tube texture". Being a twin-triode, they may only be using half of it!

The mind boggles.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 22 Sep 2005 12:34 am

Quote from Bobby: "Can't someone just yank the tube out and see if the unit still works?"

How many posters did it take for somone to suggest that? Thank you. I have an ART TPS tube preamp and pulled the tube once to actually see. It indeed did not work. And it has an LED behind the tube also.

Also, FWIW, the Takamine device got a pretty good review in GP if I recall correctly.

I'm trying to figure out what this guy accomplished, or was trying to accomplish, by this article. He said he was happy with the sound but felt duped. So what does he want?

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Artie McEwan
[This message was edited by ajm on 22 September 2005 at 01:39 AM.]

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 22 Sep 2005 1:21 am

Ok guys if my Butler Real Tube II qualifies as a cold tube type processor I'm willing to yank mine out and see if it still works or still sounds as good.

Someone please let me know if my realtube is in the same catagory so I can perform the tests

Bob

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 22 Sep 2005 1:30 am

The Real Tube preamps do use the tubes, just noted they run on low DC Plate voltage.

I had one for a while and experimented with diferent tubes in it since it was an old original model and Genz Benz wouldn't pur the steel guitar mod in it. The 12AX7 was the only one that seemed to really work right. Unfortunately, for steel, the clean channel's tone controls were located very close to AC power and the power suppl and there was too much hum for me when the Bass was turned up over half way. Genz Benz tech confirmed this was a design problem.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Sep 2005 2:22 am

I have an ART TPS that does not work with the TUBE installed ! But at least it does light up..

Maybe if I take the tube out it will work better ?

Folks, we may not be brain surgeons, but we know from our Fender Amps and Heathkits that tubes do light up....

Blake Hawkins · Post by **Blake Hawkins** » 22 Sep 2005 3:26 am

Many years ago, late '40's I think. There was a project in "Shortwave Craft" or some similar publication where the author built an
amp using a tube connected backwards and run with a very low voltage. Just vaguely remember the article. Don't know just how he did it except that he reversed the plate and grid or maybe he used a pentode and connected one of the grids as a plate.
When transistors came along, the early ones only operated at audio frequencies so you could use one for a power amp in a car radio but the rest of the radio had to be tubes.
A special series of tubes was designed to use 12 volts on both the plate and heater.
Thus the "hybrid" car radio was born.
This was in the late '50's and early'60's.
So you could build a pre amp using one of those. There are some still on shelves and available at low cost, it wouldn't be practical in a commercial product because there is no convenient supply line.
You can get 'em at Antique Radio supply:
Check out 12AE6A, and 12AE7 at www.tubesandmore.com

Blake

[This message was edited by Blake Hawkins on 22 September 2005 at 04:29 AM.]