The Steel Guitar Forum

Okay, I need to breakdown and buy some kind of digital recorder and maybe some computer software so that I can record band rehearsals and gigs to play back and practice with at home, and so I can post links of examples of tuning methods, copedant possibilities, and a handful of tracks I would like to post with tab. I'm on a budget, and for the above purposes I just need the minimum. So what the heck do I need in terms of a recorder, mics, and software? I already have a Digitech RP100A modeler and effects unit, and a little Boeringer Eurorack UB 1002 mixer with 6 channels (four in stereo). I have a good computer with Windows XT and Home Office, with a DVD ROM and a CD burner and player.

For practice it would be nice to be able to play back the recorder directly into my home stereo, or into the mixer and headphones. But then I guess it would be nice to take it into some computer software to clean up and improve the mix. I would also like to be able to add bass, keyboards, acoustic guitar and drum machine to my solo tracks. But the first priority is to get something to make recordings for practice.

For the tab I need 12-strings, and I would like to be able to write it out in standard notation in parallel to the tab, like in Doug Jernigans courses. Is there any software that makes tab easy to enter, and has 12 strings? What about the standard notation - how do I add that to the tab? Any help from those with experience will be appreciated. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 31 May 2005 at 07:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

David,
Is the computer a laptop? If so you can get an inexpensive interface... M-Audio or Presonus come to mind and tote the laptop to gigs and rehearsals. There are packages that include recording software like cubase or the new M-Audio ProTools.
If you have a desktop machine, then it is a bit more complicated.... you would need some sort of portable recording device like a Boss or Zoom unit to do the remote tracking. Then edit in the box or transfer the audio to the desktop machine.
How many simultaneous recording/playback tracks do you need?

difficult to answer with an absolute..
Portable means to be able to move it around..

To me that would rule out any PC or Laptop based on what your desired needs are.

A small Boss, Zoom, Fostex etc...8/16 tracker with on board effects , mastering and a CD burner will fill ALL of or mentioned needs and you can transfer it all to a PC for software cleanup should you want to..

Most of these are 16 bit recording but some are 24 bit...various models allow for more multiple inputs at the same time as well.Some use memory flash cards, some have small hard drives...

A little research on these little jems will prove worthy and they won't break the bank.

t.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 June 2005 at 03:27 AM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks guys. At present I only have a desktop PC. I may soon be getting a laptop for my day job. Possibly it could do double duty. Also I may get a docking station so that I can use a large screen. I guess I could use any opinions on what computer software to invest in. For my purposes, how much difference is there between cheaper stuff like Cakewalk and more expensive stuff like Pro Tools. Some recording/effects units like the Digitech Guitar Workstation seem to have the whole package. Is the software they provide adequate? The Zoom MRS-8 is smaller and cheaper, but apparently with no computer software. Anyone want to venture a comparison?

What about my tab and notation questions? Anybody have any ideas?

Dave, I use a Fostex vf160 16 track. Very portable about 17x17x5 inches, cd burner, and some onboard effects.
Hook

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www.HookMoore.com
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Hook Moore on 01 June 2005 at 07:01 AM.]</p></FONT>

Dave, keep in mind that recording with the Laptop or PC will require external hardware to get your singals into the medium appropriatley.

Preamps, headphone monitoring etc.., these are excellent systems but they are not intended to be portable and to bring to a gig and record the band..thats what the little 10 inch x 10 inch plastic workstations do, and do very well.

Two different worlds, two totally different requirements and two different methods to the end solutions.

Now for the BIG BUCKS, you can get a Roland workstion ( and others too I suppose) and have it all..the plastic carry it anywhere workstation with immense flexibility and the PC software to edit to your hearts desire.

At some point the fun ends though...

It's not a question of which is a better format but rather which is the format that fits your needs.

good luck

t
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 June 2005 at 07:03 AM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks, Tony. That's the kind of information I need. A computer with a preamp and expensive software probably makes a better home studio, but I need a portable small recorder, and probably low-end software will be good enough for me. I'm not really looking to make pro quality recordings, just minimal digital stuff for my own use.

I'm gonna post the tab and notation questions separately in another thread.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 June 2005 at 08:38 AM.]</p></FONT>

If you're not going to need to record more than 2 tracks at a time off the bat, the DigiDesign MBox is a good small, portable recording solution.

2 universal inputs (TRS or XLR) with FocusRite preamps, phantom power, it's half the size of a toaster, and is powered from the USB cable that plugs into the computer. Comes with ProTools LE.
http://www.digidesign.com/products/mbox/


Tascam's US-122 is similar. Even smaller, but has MIDI capability. Comes with Cubase LE.
http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html

For recording gigs and practices, you can just take board taps.

For mic recording, there's a Canadian company called Apex that offers incredibly good and cheap microphones.
http://www.apexelectronics.com/default.asp?p1=4&p2=0&p_id=9

David,
I went with the Zoom 1266 instead of the computer route, and managed to get a used/mint one for about $500. Hard drive, dedicated mixdown tracks, built-in cd burner, and will record 6 tracks simultaneously, 2 of them XLR. I am super pleased.

But if you want a really portable thing, see my previous set-up: http://usera.imagecave.com/charliethemoth/IMG_0046.JPG
Zoom 4-track, realistic amp, MD mixdown, and Sony monitors built into the lid.

A hard drive is better than memory cards, but they work fine as long as you mix down and then re-use them.

I use a PODxt thru a USB cable to my Dell PC with Cakewalk's "Guitar Tracks Pro" software.

It is easy to use and I have had some really fine tuned ears swear I was using an amp "live" while recording.

I like to get backing tracks and record myself playing steel over the tracks. THe mix sounds like the real deal. The software was on sale from Musican's Friend for about $60.00.

Try it out!

If multi-tracking is not required, and all you want is a high quality, portable stereo digital recorder, consider the Edirol R1. It sells for $439 at most online music retailers.
http://edirol.com/products/info/r1.html

It records on compact flash media as MP3, or uncompressed 24-bit WAV files. You can easily transfer files to a computer for editing via it's USB 2.0 port, or an external card reader. A one Gigabyte card CF card sells for under a hundred bucks these days.

I plan on getting one of these to replace my minidisk recorder.

I just got a Tascam DP-01 Portastudio that I like a lot - 40 gigabyte hard drive. It can only record two channels at a time, but you said you have a mixer? I got mine for $400 at Sweetwater, you can save a bit on Ebay but I'm not too confident about some of those sellers... Any major work I do on the tracks will be from a download to a computer anyway, I got that same Guitar Tracks Pro for $60 at Musicians Friend mentioned above. One thing about music work on a PC, I've heard it's best to either install a second hard drive strictly for music or (ideally) use a second computer dedicated only for music. When you try to EQ a track, then surf the web, then record an overdub, then check your email all on the same drive, you get a lot of crashes.

David, the digital recorders that use a hard drive are pretty pricey. I think you could get by with a cassette tape digital recorder.
One thing you need to look for is the number of tracks that can be recorded simultaneously. A lot of these recorders only record 2 simultaneous tracks. The specs may not mention this. You may have to do some digging to get this info. If you can assign a separate track to each instrument, you will not have to worry about the balance. You can mix that later. I wish I could recommend one recorder that will do this but I am not up on all the models available. Good luck.

A key feature to look at is the storage media. The flash memory systems are inexpensive, quiet, and very portable. They are limited in memory, but a computer can be used to burn the "keepers" to CD. The hard disk systems are usually much more powerful, but it sounds like you don't need that.

One inexpensive possibility for portable recording in stereo (not multi-tracking)might be a mini-disc recorder. No longer marketed much in the US, they can be found on ebay for about $100 more or less. Those made by Sharp are often preferred for live recording because they allow adjustment of the mic input levels while recording (many of the Sony's don't!). For playback, most have at least an analog output that can be fed into the line input of your mixer or computer's sound card, some have USB for direct digital out as well. For recording, you could run a couple of cheap condenser mic's (Marshall, Oktava etc.) into your mixer, and mixer out's into the minidisc line inputs.

The biggest problem w/PC recording is the latency between the recorded signal and the live signal.

And it's an insurmountable problem as far as I can tell.

"The biggest problem w/PC recording is the latency between the recorded signal and the live signal.
And it's an insurmountable problem as far as I can tell."

I think you may be able to get around that problem by monitoring your live signal before it goes into the PC, rather than monitoring it through the recording software.

David,
Do a search for Digital Audio Workstations,Digital Multitrack Recorders,Digital Workstations or DAWs.
There are hundreds of them. There are also a bunch of review sites.Try Harmony Central to get started.

Marty,
The latency thing is no problem if you set your internal configuration properly. I end up in project studios run on PCs or Macs at least once a week. I hear/record everything including my overdubs in real time. Whoever you worked with that didn't know how to work around latency issues didn't understand the manual.

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Bob
intonation help