modeling amps

Ray Satterfield · Post by **Ray Satterfield** » 28 Mar 2005 7:13 pm

anyone using a Line 6 or any of the other modeling amps to play steel through?
Thanks in advance for any feedback on this.

J J Harmon · Post by **J J Harmon** » 29 Mar 2005 4:22 am

There has been some discussion but I think most discussion is around the POD. The Combos don't have the bass or head room to suit most.

I have a Flextone II HD which is a POD 2 with 200 (2X100) Watt stereo to 4,8 or 16 ohm. Very clean. You can access the POD with a PC.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 29 Mar 2005 5:12 am

I have a POD XT (the more desireable model over the POD). I didn't buy it for the modeling and personally do not think the modeling really emulates whatever it is "modeling". e.g. the Twin Reverb model doesn't sound like the AB768 chassis Twin Reverb that I had.

If I wanted, for example, a Twin Reverb sound I would get a Twin Reverb. If I wanted a Mesa Boogie sound I would get a Mesa Boogie, etc.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 29 Mar 2005 8:38 am

The digital modeling devices are okay when you're recording and can't use an amp. But if you like a big, full sound with dynamics and naturally occuring overtones, stick with your tube amp.

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 29 Mar 2005 8:39 am

try a vox tonelab it has great clean sounds and feels just like you are playing through a amp the problem with a lot of these is there is no power amp stage you get a model of a pre amp and speaker cab but the power amp affects it to. Vox has actually put a tube in their unit to simulate the power amp stage which is always changing impedence at the speaker. I have it and a pod xt both and the tonelab is far the best for clean sounds in my opinion Jeff

David Spires · Post by **David Spires** » 29 Mar 2005 8:48 am

I don't like a nice, full, big tone... I like something that sounds sterile and crappy. It draws attention from my poor intonation.

(Just joking... and blowing out a useless comment.)

In my opinion, the Line 6 amps don't offer enough power for steel, and most were built on the old POD's engine.

Amp modeling is tremendous for running direct, can be very good "live", and when you want to use a wide variation in amplifier tones. However - if you want a Boogie, get one - want a Webb, get one, etc... (as Jack said). It's not for everyone, but it has served me extremely well. I've been trying to get tones I can use live or recording, and take everywhere I go - and use in any situation. Players go about that in different ways, and that is why we all sound different.

I find no replacement for experimenting (yes - it can get expensive that way), and trying things for yourself. No one will ever hear it just the way you do.

Sincerely,

David Spires

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 29 Mar 2005 9:47 am

I have a Vox AD120VTX that I use for live playing, where I have to have a "metal" sound. I replaced the Bulldog speakers with a couple of Black Widows. I love the overdrive models, but the "clean" sound doesn't measure up to the real thing. I had it side by side with my Christmas Tree, trying to recreate the sound, and it couldn't do it, to my ears.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 29 Mar 2005 10:02 am

While I agree I'm not worthy to shine the boots of the great Mr. S, I am speaking from some experience here. I work sometimes with a guitarist who uses a pod through on of those JBL plastic powered PA speakers. Funny you should use the term sterile, because that's exactly the description I use for the sound. Now squashed, overprocessed guitar sounds are nothing new, but what's really unpleasant are the weird, clashing low overtones from the pod. I don't know if it's digital aliasing, bit error correction, the modeling algorithms or what. I can tell you that when everyone plays a big chord together I can sure hear some funky digital doo-doo. But you probably won't hear it in the mix.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Mar 2005 10:03 am

I agree the Line 6 and other amp models do not quite sound like the real thing. However, most steelers these days are playing through sterile sounding solid state amps. The Line 6 tube amp models I have tried (POD XT, Vetta head) sound better than the solid state amp I had (NV 400). The problem is that you need a very high powered high fidelity amp to do justice to the amp models. The POD XT through the NV 400 sounded pretty good up to moderate volumes. But at high volumes it began to sound more like a stressed out solid state amp than the tube model. I have only tried the Line 6 Vetta head in a store, but with 300 watts, it seemed to have plenty of power, and the models sounded very good. My problem is that I can get a real vintage Twin, Vibrosonic, or Super Twin for half the price, and it has the real sound. Nevertheless, the Vetta has the advantage of being a single, small, light package with dozens of effects, and the interesting ability to blend two amp models together. I would imagine that a Vetta played through one or more 15" speakers would be a very versatile amp for pedal steel. It also has the advantage that you can set up multiple channels for either steel or regular guitar.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Mar 2005 10:04 am

A dissadvantage of an integrated system of effects and amp, such as the Vetta head, is that if anything goes wrong with the effects or the amp, you have to repair or replace the whole system. Whereas, with a separate effects unit (like a POD XT) and amp, you can update, replace or repair one unit without affecting the other. Thus, a multiple-effects unit and a clean high powered amp and separate speakers might be the best rig in the long run.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 29 March 2005 at 10:13 AM.]

David Spires · Post by **David Spires** » 29 Mar 2005 11:10 am

Michael - As I wrote, I intended for my comment to be a funny one, regarding what some must think of my sound when I use such pieces of equipment. My opinion is no more valid than others'; I was only trying to share my opinion with Ray, which happens to differ from yours.

I apologize if you took my comments as an attack of some kind.

David Spires

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 Mar 2005 3:02 pm

David S., I thought your comment was funny.

I've been using a Pod 2 for 3 years, and while it's not perfect, I really like it at lower volumes. It's easy to preset for quick changes between steel, electric guitar, and banjo, and the rig size is small and appropriate to a small stage/room. Most steel players seem to prefer the Pod XT, but I'm still copacetic with Pod 2.

I have a nice '69 Dual Showman Reverb, a 70s Peavey LTD 400 with an old Spider Black Widow speaker, and a bunch of blackface Fender amps. I love these amps, but they veer to the loud, and need to be opened up a bit before they sound right, to me anyway. In a small club and some types of recording, I think a Pod of whatever configuration run through a small clean-sounding amp works better for me. For me and the people I work with, the goal is to lower the stage volume, not make it louder. My experience tells me that if I'm having trouble hearing my instrument, it's not usually because I'm too quiet, but that the band is overall too loud and corroborated by audience members screaming to talk to each other and holding their ears. To those of you playing loud dance halls and coliseums, ignore this, but if you play to a listening audience in small clubs, have you ever noticed this?

I recently got a Digitech Genesis 3 (no longer being made) from Fred Shannon (Thanks, Fred). It's different than the Pod, some things I like better, some not as well. But the Buddy Emmons settings sound real good - you were expecting maybe, what, they sound lousy?

BTW, I think running a modeler through the right amp can help its tone a lot. The'digital artifacts' can be a bit harsh when run straight into a really clean, sparkly PA. Most sound people roll off a little bit of high end, but they are generally very grateful they don't have to mix around a blaring guitar amp.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 29 Mar 2005 3:14 pm

The Line 6 amps are so far based on the pre-XT engine which is incapable of eliminating the spurious harmonic distortion that causes a descending ghost tone to be generated when playing two or more ASCENDING notes together(and vice versa). Can't have that.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Mar 2005 8:41 pm

All the modeling amps I've tried were very disappointing. (They're not made for pedal steel guitar.) Their only advantage, when used for straight guitar, is duplicating the overdrive characteristics of some amps, and changing tone settings rapidly when going from lead to rhythm.

Just not much good for pedal steel.

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 30 Mar 2005 9:36 pm

Dave Mudgett--I have a Genesis 3 and I'm getting some good clean tones from mine---but what is the Buddy Emmons setting on this unit? I'd love to get it--that is if you aren't kidding! I've found clean with the Blackface, Brit Combo and the CountryClub models.

J J Harmon · Post by **J J Harmon** » 31 Mar 2005 4:41 am

I have a Tubefex, a GS-10 and the Flextone II HD. All three were designed to outfit a heavy metal distortion player. They do have clean settings and are cleaner than my Nashville 400's.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 31 Mar 2005 6:09 am

Hey David, send your boots to my house, I'll shine them..but then I'm wearin' 'em dude !

You mean if I get a modeling amp and want to sound like Brad Paisley, I won't ?

I'm waitin for the amp that has a switch that has Paul Franklin and Loyd Green licks already built in so all I have to do is press the foot pedal, sit back and relax..let the amp do all the work !

The heck with the ultimate tone characteristics, I want the licks !

Hey, I'll even take an amp with David Spires licks built in..whadya make of that !

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 31 March 2005 at 10:06 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 31 Mar 2005 6:53 am

Al, no kidding here. They're here http://www.buddyemmons.com/genesis3a.htm, or on this forum thread: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/004267.html.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 31 Mar 2005 7:41 am

David,
I appreciated your humor. It's always welcome here, as long as you add a smiley or say it's humor (which you did).

Anyone that ever heard you play has to know your quest to "highlight crappy intonation" is not serious. You don't need help in that area.

Seriously, I know I can count on seeing your expert advice whenever a POD post appears.

Thanks.

Billy McCoy · Post by **Billy McCoy** » 31 Mar 2005 6:27 pm

Hey Guys,

I had to chime in here. Most of the guys are correct in saying that the POD or Line 6 amps will not sound exactly like their favorite twin or Vox or boogie.....but, I have A/B the original modeled amps with the LINE 6 gear and it is impossible to tell the difference. But then again, no TWO amps really sound exactly alike...do they.

If you want to sound like Brad Paisley...get the POD PRO....that is what you hear most of the time in the house speakers on a live performance. (VOX setting).

I worked for LINE 6 as a guitar player and clinician for 6 years. I use the POD stuff and amps (vetta II) for guitar...but use the Walker Stereo Steel for my Pedal Steel rig. Somebody wisely stated the obvious...the LINE 6 gear is JUST NOT Made for Steel. That is correct!

Although our Pedal Steels through the POD XT or POD XT PRO direct in the studio is a Great alternative for going direct...and most times I can't tell the difference from my black face deluxe or twin and the POD XT in the studio.

Oh...the ghost notes are generally the result of leaky filter caps on a tube amp...aka: the vox model on the POD...AC 30
turn the drive to 12-2 (slightly overdriven) then hit a single note...bend it slowly....hear the ghost note? That is cool for playing Lenny Kravitz stuff on guitar...but not so cool for Pedal Steel.

Until we can convince LINE 6 to make Pedal Steel amp models...we have to endure guitar amps for pedal steel. It will change in the future if enough of us e-mail this suggestion in. They DO READ ALL THE EMAIL that comes their way.

Hope this helps.

b

------------------
MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 7 Apr 2005 11:48 am

I have found the vox tonelab far better than the pod xt for clean guitar sounds I havent got to try it with a steel but it doesnt model any of the steel amps either but for you guys that like to play through tube amps this unit actually has a tube in it and simulates the power amp output it feels much more like playing through a real amp,