The Steel Guitar Forum

Guys I 've started playin with a southern Gospel group, and I've heard some of you guys talkin about playin through the system. would ya'll be so kind and tell me how to do that please? I think I'm goin to have to play through the system for my steel to sound right. or, maybe not, which is the best way to get the best sound from my steel?
through the system, or just through my amp?
could ya'll explain the process in hookin my steel up to play through the system just in laymens terms, I don't know all these fancy electronic words.The piano player is purty sharp on hookin up stuff, but he didn't know how to hook my steel through the system. thanks in advance
Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 400
steelin for my Lord

Terry
If you have a direct lineout
on your amp, either a 1/4" or XLR
go from there to the input of one
of the channels on the main board.
This will allow your signal to
be picked up from your amp straight
to the board and go into the house
and monitor mix. Your amp becomes
your monitor for what you hear.
You will need to play loud enough
to get a good signal strength
to the board.
If your amp does have the outputs
required, use a Direct Box.
I never like to use a microphone
on the amp for live playing.
It picks up to much unwanted junk.
I'm sure you will get several other
answers.
Good luck.

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Rick Johnson

Terry, if all the instruments are thru the board then you should be also. If only the vocals are thru the board then I would not think you should be the only instrument thru the board. However, I don't know what instruments are in the band. I play with a Gospel group and we all go thru the board and have someone running the sound board for proper balance. I use a Shure SM57 mic as close to the speaker as the grille will allow. I center it on the edge of the voice coil cover. I prefer the mic over a direct out of the amp to the board.
Jerry

Thanks Rick and Jerry. I have a session 400 with two channels, and on the back it has a
place to hook a foot switch and a booster. I'm purty sure I wouldn't use the foot switch to plug into, what about the booster, or the other channel? ya'll see how much I know about amps and stuff.
would I use either of the above to plug into and run to the main board? yea Jerry, the piano is hooked to the system. that's all we have right now, is a piano, drums and my steel.
Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 400
steelin for my Lord

Hang a microphone in front of your amp speaker.

or send the second volume pedal output to the board..or get a Morley AB Pedal and split the signal..

Terry there's many ways but you should use your amp if for nothing else as your personal monitor.

Are these big rooms you are playing in ? Hundreds of people ? Who's running the board ? Typically for small to moderate sized rooms only the vocals are in the up front sound system..and perhaps if there is an Upright Bass it is close mic'ed..

good luck..
t

What's the sense to having a great sounding steel amp if you go direct to the board? It doesn't add up. I use a Nashville 400 and mike it with a Shure SM57. The mike is placed right on the grill cloth about 2 to 3 inches from the edge of the speaker. In the PA set everything is set flat with no effects. I like to match the volume level of the amp exactly to the volume level coming out of the mains. This way I know exactly how loud I'll be and can adjust accordingly. We've played all sorts of venues this way and never had any problems. It's especially great when you're recording your band live. How many times have you had your band recorded live from the board only to find that the vocals overpower everything and you can't hardly even hear the lead instruments? Once you're set, if you have a soundman tell him (her) to keep their damn fingers off your channel controls and you'll adjust your own levels on stage....Have a good 'un..JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Thanks guys, Tony the room varies from church to church, they sing at some purty big churches and some small churches.
so instead of pluggin in to the system, all I need to do is hang a mike a couple of inches from my amp right? the piano is plugged into the system, the piano player also runs the board, and he likes the piano LOUD!
BTW- Tony, I got your Lower Ten Blues course. very good stuff on that course.
Great job!
Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 400
steelin for my Lord

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 12 November 2004 at 07:15 AM.]</p></FONT>

As well as being a muso I run sound - a week ago I did a UK band called Lost Highway (one of my best friends is the lead guitar) and they have a steel player (Hi Dave!).

I treat the steel as I would a guitar. By far the first choice is a mic in front, starting point is SM57.

I do not like using DI with any form of guitar for a big primary rason - non flat response speakers. The speakers in guitar amps tend to be a little coloured. What can happen is that part way therough the set the player adds a dollop of treble on the amp. if the speaker is a little low on response in that band, the DI may suddlenly have HEAPS more top and and what is just a bit of a brighten up via the speaker is suddenly painful out fron. Going via a mic means that moderation of the speaker also happens through the PA.

It may be worth trying different mics - if an amp, guitar and player are particularly sweet I may put a lerge diaphragm condenser in front of it!

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Absolute beginner!
Bennet Freshman E9 3+3

Paul, what is SM57?

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 400
steelin for my Lord

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 12 November 2004 at 08:18 AM.]</p></FONT>

Yea, what Richard said. Put a mic in front of your speaker.

Brad Sarno

Hi Terry,

To answer your last question first, the Shure SM57 is the workhorse of dynamic microphones, you should be able to get one for no more than $80.00 from any reputable pro audio store. If you can't let me know and I will steer you to where you can.

You might also look into the Sennheiser MD609, a new (cheaper) version of a marvelous old mic (the MD409 gold-face) that you probably won't be able to get anyone to sell you any more. Chief advantage of this fine sounding mic is that it is side address, i.e. you can hang by the cable it right off the handle on your amp and it will lie flat on the grill cloth in front of your speaker. Of course you have to get the RIGHT side pointed to the speaker!

I have been on both sides of the sound console for many, MANY years and the only real solution is to find what works best FOR YOU and in your application. Don't be afraid to try different things, going direct, speaker mic'd, guitar amps, rack mount gear combos, black boxes, just keep fooling around until you find something that gets YOUR sound just right. Then, no matter what you do, some well-meaning "soundman" will still screw it up when you least expect it! Main thing that most sound folk don't get is that you will use your volume pedal to voice stuff. Give them a good hot (that's loud for you not versed in technical lingo) signal at sound check and tell them to keep their cotton-pickin' hands off your settings afterwards. Then play it hot enough to hear it coming back at you from the mains when the band is playing.

I know this is seriously over-simplified but it's a starting place at least. Let me know if you have any serious difficulties, this is what we do for a living when we can't get away with a pickin' date.

Dave

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Strung Out on Great Sounds
www.pdxaudio.com/dgbio

Amen to the Sennheiser 409 or 609.

Brad Sarno

SM57 is a shure mic, and is the standard start point for many engineers when micing a guitar cab.

A comment made in the post about giving the sound guy a hot signal is worth commenting on.

At soundcheck, one of the aims is to set levels. What I want is the hottest signal you are going to give me. What I (and other engineers) am doing is starting with a basic level. If you give me half level now then crank it later you get clipping. Clipping does not sound good, and annoys the hell out of engineers!

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Absolute beginner!
Bennet Freshman E9 3+3

Peavey makes a direct box that is positioned after your amp and before your speaker. It has an outlet that goes to the pa. With this setup you have your amp settings going to both your speaker and the pa system.
Erv

<SMALL>Hang a microphone in front of your amp speaker. </SMALL>

Hanging (as in dangling from the mic cord over the amp) is ok in a pinch, but suggest you use a microphone stand to position it correctly if possible.

If you hang a mic - you'll get way different, and even unpleasent sounds than you might want or expect - the 'off axis' response is different than head on. That is - sounds coming from the side of the mic. will sound different.

Also, cardiod mics like the SM57 are supposed to reject sound from the side to control feedback etc. Not to mention, putting extra strain on the mic cord.

Experiment and see what works.
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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon" www.book-em-danno.com www.seldomfed.com

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by seldomfed on 15 November 2004 at 12:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

While the SM-57 is the standard reference amp mic, and certainly not very expensive, here's another plug for the ATM-29HE "Bulk," available for under $50 from sources like Full Compass Audio. It's rugged, and seems to have a little more "air" than the SM-57, which I think is the proper gearhead term for a sound quality that has been nice for steel, although it might not edge the SM-57 for rock guitar amp micing.

The 609 "Silver" is widely available for $99, which is tempting me to try one. Query whether it is really a worthy successor to the 409, now a lot more pricey, used -- conversely, is the 409 really that much better, or is this just another urban myth? Also, I have read that these are prized for their "midrange punch," which does not sound like a desirable quality for steel use. Not so, Brad?

Anyway, in theory you don't need a mic stand for these, since they are "side firing" and can really hang over the top of the amp, but I would still use a short floor stand or gooseneck and control the positioning better. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 15 November 2004 at 06:54 PM.]</p></FONT>

I can't argue with the Jack and hungry's notes on using a stand to get the mic positioned in that perfect "sweet spot" IF you are in a position to fool around and find it. Hanging a 409 or 609 is fast and easy and works well on a small stage.

I like the old 409's for their warmth, a really sweet sound that seems to compliment everything I've put it on. Jon Jorgenson used one for vocals and clarinet at a show we did with him recently here in PDX. WOW! It was his idea and I'm glad he asked for it, it really sounded great. Unfortunately they are very hard to come by these days and I can't honestly say that the 609 has quite the same qualities. Guitar players seem to worship them, though.

Myself, I get the PA feed out of the XLR's on the back of my REV7 right before the power amp and yes, I go stereo whenever I can get away with it.

Dave<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 16 November 2004 at 12:39 AM.]</p></FONT>

Back in '95 I had a conversation with Paul Languedoc, the soundman for Phish. He had Sennheiser 409's all over the stage; guitar amps, every tom-tom, Leslie top, and every horn that would guest appear with the band. One of the greatest guitar sounds thru a PA I've ever heard. He told me that Sennheiser had just quit making them because they were each handmade and were too expensive to continue building. So I started searching all over the country and rounded up the last 4 in America. I've still got them and they are like gold to me. I've used them on vocals, guitar amps, all kinds of percussion, smaller horn and wind instruments, drum overheads, and more. Amazing on clarinet and accordian. They are among my very favorite dynamic mics.

I have never compared the 609 to the 409 directly, but I have used the 609 in a live situation. From what little I've gathered on the 609, I get the impression that it has a similar midrange character which makes it a good guitar amp mic, but it lacks the top end detail and the low end fatness of the 409. For either mic I like being able to hang the mic in front of an amp by running the cable thru the amp handle and then using the space between the amp knobs to line up the mic with the sweet spot on the speaker. They don't cut like a SM57, but they do translate the guitar tone very accurately with lots of fullness. Sometimes I'll opt for the SM57 depending on the tone and what it's competing with in the mix. I've seen a couple of Stevie Ray Vaughan live videos where there's a 409 on every amp and even SRV's vocal. Great sound. For the price, the 609 would be worth trying it seems. Good luck finding a 409.

Regarding the topic of this thread; mic the speaker. It's easier, more natural sounding, more easily controlled and tweaked, and avoids ground loop hum issues.

Brad Sarno

Here's an MD-409 for sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64449&item=3762398885&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Then here's an MD-509 (I hadn't heard of those -- a transitional model?): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41465&item=3761424378&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

And here's a 609 that's not "Silver" (I have read that this is "darker" than the 409 and 609 "Silver Edition," which replaced it as a better cheap replacement for the 409): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41465&item=3762357272&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I am certainly not shilling for eBay or the sellers of these mics -- just trying to report that they do seem to be somewhat available, if scarce and (to me) pricey (but then, I'm using a $49 dynamic mic). If I bought a $400 dynamic mic I don't think I would want a drummer beating on it!

Excellent information, Brad. Yes, I do occasionally have to ditch the direct lines due to ground loops and impedance mismatches.

I seem to have this fixation with getting the CLEANEST sound possible from my old ShoBud and the old JBL 15" seems to lose some of the high end that I want to get across, my main reason for going direct when I can.

I am soon taking delivery of an old Randall Steelman 500 and am curious to see what it sounds like - it's been years since I had ONE BOX that I could plug into and play happily, maybe this will do it, we'll see.

Dave <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 16 November 2004 at 11:00 AM.]</p></FONT>

I didn't realize mics were so pricy!
thanks for all the imput guys. looks like hangin a mic in front of my amp is the way to go. but it ain't gonna be a $400 one.
Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 400
steelin for my Lord

Terry,
I think that Peavey direct box is around $30.00 and it will feed right into the PA.
Erv

Terry, you don't need to spend $400. An SM57 (I know it looks like I have shares in shure) is a safe bet - it will do the job - I used one a week ago for steel through a boogie combo and it sounded quite nice. The first site I looked at (zzsounds) that listed a price has them at $90.

The senny 609s look quite cheap as well. A seller on ebay lists them at $99

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Absolute beginner!
Bennet Freshman E9 3+3

SM57's go for $79.00 at any serious pro audio store all over the country. Email me if you can't find one for that price, I'll find you one.

Dave