The Steel Guitar Forum

the story so far:

I had been hearing f@rting noises on the low end with my ;68 Twin Reverb with D130f, thought it was speaker related, and didn't want to damage the JBL further...so
last year I had bought a 4 ohm Weber California 15" to swap in my Twn to give the 8ohm JBL a rest and to try a impedance-matched speaker in the Twin...

anyway, after installation, upon playing low notes the Weber clicked (in the same note range as the JBL f@rted) like a digital clipping noise-thought maybe I had damaged it too somehow... so I swapped in a different JBL and kept a goin'... left it on the back burner of priorities

So... a few months ago my Twin craps out entirely- turns out there was a intermittent bad connection on one of the power tube sockets- wire barely touching, arcing- it's a miracle it worked at all when it did work and didn't catch fire!!
got it cleaned up and resoldered and voila- the low end distortions were GONE!

this weekend I reinstalled the Weber and am going to give it another chance. I Love the JBL (s) sound with thirty-some years of melloroonie, and expect a bit of break-in with the Cali, but in initial testing it sounded great, and MUCH louder.

I'll be giving it the acid test this weekend...


Just thought I'd share.

as my 6 year old son says when Ma or Pa gets long winded:

"blah blah blah blah blah!"<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 15 December 2003 at 08:56 AM.]</p></FONT>

Looking forward to the report on the Weber Cali. What's the power rating?

Brad Sarno

Mine's the Ceramic Cali 15", not the AlNiCo...with aluminum dust dome like my JBL's. So I expect it's 80 watts


from the WeberVST.com website:

<SMALL>The models described on this page feature 2" Kapton voice coils, 60oz Ferromax® ceramic or 40oz AlNiCo ring magnet circuits, and heavy duty rolled frames, painted white. The ceramics are rated at 80 watts RMS, the AlNiCo models are rated at 60 watts. These models are designed for higher powered single speaker combo amps as well as very high powered multi-speaker stacks. </SMALL>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
California 10, California 12, California 15

The California Series ™ (12 and 15") has shallow, curved cones with spider and dust domes optimized for bandwidth, dynamics and headroom. These speakers are clean machines with big, solid bottom and clear highs. Best for Surf, Jazz, Country Tele, and clean Blues. All California models are available with aluminum or paper dust domes.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been using these speakers for a while now---I have a cab with a 15, a cab with a 12 and a 12 in my Deluxe Reverb. plus a 2x10 cab that I just put Cali's in. All have a paper cap. I recall that Ted Weber refers to the 80W rating as "conservative". Ironically, Dave, I have a D130F sitting here that I'm contemplating putting in the 15 cab to replace the Weber. Why? Because, I guess. The only thing I am sometimes wondering is whether the Cali's are a little too smooth, too neutral. I've lately had a hankering for a little bit of personality, grit, in the sound. I'll be real interested in your impressions once the Weber is broken in.

I have friends that have used JBL's for years,and decided to go to the Weber Cali speaker since it's touted as a JBL replacement....They all say that it has a great bottom end ,but doesn't have the sparkle of the JBL ...They all waited for a long break in period hopeing for more sparkle, but it never came... It's a good sounding speaker, but a tad dark but not overly so....It is a very neutral sounding speaker .... They all came back with the same answer....It's no JBL .... From the way they describe it, they sound more like an EVM -15 replacement .....Again, tone is in the ears of the beholder, and I'm only going by hearsay....I have not installed the Cali in any of my amps.....Jim

<SMALL>I Love the JBL (s) sound with thirty-some years of melloroonie, and expect a bit of break-in with the Cali, but in initial testing it sounded great, and MUCH louder.</SMALL>

Dave, I don't think there's any speaker smoother than a D130! But like you, I found that their efficiency wasn't much compared to modern speakers (the "D" series was designed in the late '40s). Most any modern speaker will sound about half-again as loud as the old JBL's at the same volume settings. Of course, that's only important when you're working with lower wattage amps. (I used to get 6 mos. to a 1 year out of the D-130 JBL before my B/F Twin Reverb destroyed it. A 15" SRO cured that problem!)

Donny... I expect it might take me a while, but I have confidence I can dial in "my sound" on this combo.

I'm probably the only one who'll hear a difference anyway...

Webers tend to be dark speakers in general. Also keep in mind that the calis only have a 2" voice coil, compared to the JBL's 4" coil.

I'll keep my D130F and D120F's, thank you. I haven't heard any other so sparkly and so smooth as an old JBL.

Has anyone done AB comparisons between the different types of Weber speakers to figure out which ones are best for pedal steel?

Dave, I decided to give my Weber California another try also. I put it in a Custom Vibrasonic. I'm taking it out this Friday. It sounds pretty good and the amp is lighter now. With the Eminace speaker I had to keep the treble at 3 or 4 so I have plenty of room to crank the treble with the Weber and squeeze some more highs out of it.

So how many watts can D130s and D120s handle? I have two reconed D120s and my wifes uncle is giving me a Leslie cab with a D130 in it that I'll try for steel.

Thanks, Dave Zirbel
www.themothertruckers.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 16 December 2003 at 07:48 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>my wifes uncle is giving me a Leslie cab with a D130 in it that I'll try for steel.</SMALL>

oooooh I am turning green with envy!


Donny can probably tell you the power ratings on the JBL's better than I... I just know I ain't blown mine in three years I've owned it, and it's been in the amp considerably longer....makes me wonder what Donny DID to those poor speakers


Dave Doggett- if I had the resoources I would... I expect the AlNiCo would sound great, but I'd want two to handle the load.
Weber's are pretty tied in with the vintage tube amp thing... I wouldn't try one in a SS PV...
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 16 December 2003 at 08:17 AM.]</p></FONT>

I had been hearing f@rting noises on the low end. Could be the CBS syndrome. First comes what you describe and then the CBS finale.

Check out what you ate the day before.

"Fender Of Course"

thanks Jody! Glad you're feeling better!

thanks Jody! Glad you're feeling better!


I was "until"

The old "D" series JBL's will handle about 50 watts (for the 12") and 75-80 (for the 15"). Originally, a "big amp" was 30-40 watts, though! Yeah, I know people who play them for years without a problem. If you're playing without a lot of lows (the Chalker-type stuff) and you have a reflex (ported) cabinet, then they'll serve well if they're not pushed too much. They won't, however, handle their rated (100 watts) power in an open back cabinet, or when pushing them hard on the low end.

Remember, when these speakers were designed, there weren't any bass guitars, "boo-wah" pedals, or high-power (over 60 watts) instrument amps. The reason <u>every</u> manufacturer stopped using them was because of their failure rate, plain and simple. (Fantastic sound, though...really sweet.)

T'weren't beauty that killed the beast, t'was that dinky little voice coil.

T'weren't beauty that killed the beast, t'was that dinky little voice coil.

Donny is correct. JBL speaker were characteristic for voice coil failure. Fender
absorbed all costs for replacement of voice coils on speakers returned to JBL.

It was JBL who took the stance that Fender amps were no match for the D series made especially for Fender,so why then did they not re-design the voice coil to handle the volume that a Fender Twin/ Super Reverb was capable of?

From the buying customers standpoint,they are sold on the fact that the extra cost JBL was the premier speaker to have in a Fender amp.

I many times had to explain to an irate customer to use common sense when driving a JBL to its limits and they were not at all impressed with my philosophy,,here they paid out all this extra money only to be told that they should adhere to a speed limit?

I have seen many Amplifiers come off the line with defective voice coils during testing by our technicians.

Was this the fault of Fender or the inadequate design of the voice coil that JBL designed?

Try explaining this problem to a retail customer and the selling dealer that the customer played over # 3 on the volume. They
laughed in my face. I tried explaining that JBL's were a high quality speaker and it's main feature was the clarity of tone and not
being beat to death by an out of control guitar player. They didnt buy my explanation
not for the additional cost of a JBL speaker.

For all intents and purposes the JBL was a fine speaker,It just didnt make it with many Fender amp owners,not unless you could live
with playing at a level of volume as suggested by JBL.

Many times I was ...but after many discussions with Leo Fender and Don Randall we tried to discourage customers from ordering amplifiers with JBL speakers.

Sorry JBL..I switched to Altec Lansing 417
speakers. All of the Fender saleman screamed so loud we burned our "voice coils" as well.

The theory is,if you want a JBL as I knew them,have respect for their capabilities before going off the deep end. edited to get off the edge.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 18 December 2003 at 05:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>T'weren't beauty that killed the beast, t'was that dinky little voice coil. </SMALL>

from the movie "King Koil" about a giant speaker that runs amok in NYC in 1933

Okay, so I just picked up a late '70s 135 watt Twin Reverb with two JBL 12s. If they can handle 50 watts each, does that mean together they can handle 100 watts?

I also have a 15" D130F in a reflex cabinet. Am I right that it will be okay with my 100 watt Vibrasonic head, but might be a little risky with the 135 watt Twin?

Without adding distortion, it seems to me that these speakers should be fine with pedal steel even in amps rated higher than the speakers, because of the way we use the volume pedal. That is to say, even if a 200 watt amp has it's volume knob wide open, my volume pedal is less than half down when I attack the notes. I only get the pedal all the way down when sustaining long notes that are dying out. In other words, just because the amp is running wide open, if the incoming signal is low, the speaker is not feeling the full output of the amp.

It also is of interest that Fender amps, at least the Twin Reverb, was overated for it's output. People who have measured output on the "100 watt" models say it is actually around 80 watts. And when they came out with the reissue Twin, they apparently used the modern rating system and called it 85 watts. I'm thinking that means the 135 watt late '70s models are really about 100 watts. Related to this, it seems interesting that the old ratings were taken from the back plate, where they were printed at the speaker jacks. It occurs to me that Fender may have actually meant those ratings to be for the minimum handling capacity of speakers that might get plugged in there, and not meant for the amp itself. It makes sense that they would recommend a 100 watt speaker for an 80 watt amp.

As for distortion. Over on the other thread about JBL speaker history, people involved in the development and testing said that 50 watts was where the speakers began to blow with full spectrum sound from a hifi. But because a guitar does not produce the full spectrum, the speaker could probably handle substantially more with a guitar, and so should be rated higher for a guitar amp. But distortion would seem to expand the sound to close to the full spectrum, so for that the more conservative rating would be more applicable for the speaker. Does this seem right?

Now for my final question (sorry to be so long winded, but this discussion is highly relevant to my current situation), suppose I plug my 15" reflex extension cabinet into my 135 watt Twin along with it's internal two 12s. First of all, I have tried that, and it sounds like God came down from heaven and brought his entire Angel choir with him. The question is, would I be safe to use some distortion with that arrangement? I'm not talking about heavy metal, just some tasteful fuzz for playing blues (okay so "tasteful fuzz" may be an oxymoron for some people).

<SMALL>suppose I plug my 15" reflex extension cabinet into my 135 watt Twin along with it's internal two 12s. First of all, I have tried that, and it sounds like God came down from heaven and brought his entire Angel choir with him.</SMALL>

I can hear ol' Martha Stewart now... "it's a Good Thing"

seems to me to be a safe thing (re:fuzz), but I am not an electronics expert, just a Fender Junkie....

Careful with adding that extension cab. Your pair of 12" speakers is a 4 ohm load. If you add another speaker, that may cook your Twin's output transformer by dropping the impedance so low, right? Are there extra taps on the transformer that allow this? I dont know that model of the Twin very well. But be careful.

Brad Sarno

I'll be giving it the acid test this weekend...
see my post in Events and Announcements.

I am taking both the Zum and the ZB for the iota weekend, and will probably swap guitars between sets, for giggles. Hey you only live once!

Fender, of course!

------------------

"I AM Z-BOY!"


<small>Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: ZB Custom D-10 :: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com :: www.lasttrainhome.com::
My Live365 Broadcast

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 19 December 2003 at 08:01 AM.]</p></FONT>

Brad, I'm just plugging my 8 ohm JBL 15" cabinet into the "External Speaker" jack that is on the back plate next to the "Internal Speaker" jack that has the combo's onboard two 8 ohm 12" JBLs plugged in. I assumed that's what that ext. jack is for. I know that on my Vibrasonic head, if you plug an external speaker into the ext. jack without anything being plugged into the internal jack, the external jack does not work. I haven't checked the Twin to see if it works the same way. This makes it seem to me like Fender intended that a single speaker system be plugged into the internal jack, and any auxilliary cabinet be plugged into the external jack, but only if something was alread plugged into the internal jack. I believe the external jack says "parallel" - I'll check when I get home. So it seems like I'm doing what Fender intended.

so you have an 8ohm load and a 4 ohm load... I think that brings it down to a 2.xxx ohm load? which while nor great for the tranny is apparently tollerable - or maybe it isn't a lower ohm load in parallel- here's what Donny Hinson has to say 'bout it
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/004144.html


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 19 December 2003 at 09:58 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 19 December 2003 at 09:59 AM.]</p></FONT>

The extension speaker jack in the 135 watt, ultralinear Twins is a little different. It's a switching jack that puts the extra speaker cab in series, not parallel with the internal speakers. So if the internal speakers are a 4 ohm load, adding a 4 ohm cab will give you a 8 ohm total.

One way you can tell if that's what you have is the extension speaker jack has a plastic washer around it. The plastic washer is necessary to isolate the jack from the chassis.

welll.... I guess it's been nearly a year now, and I still have the Cali in there. It has mellowed a bit with use.

Still a bit strident on the highs, but then so am I...

Gives me low end like nobody's business and sounds generally great.