The Steel Guitar Forum

Is it those few precious years that the Black Faced Twin was extra special for tone? I know folks who would trade a "woman who can cook" for a '68 twin. How do you like to set up your twin for steel. I just had my '74 "blackfaced" by my circuit geru. I have 2 knew 12" fender evil twin speakers, and this amp squirts tone out the front!! I have some mods and a recap job,ect. My '80 Marlen S10 sounds very nice through this amp. I'm curious: What about a 15"----------

When fender went to the silver panels (silverface) a few things happened tonewise.
1) some of the ultra high end was lost, which for steel you may want back to blackface specs
2) the phase inverter was changed to allow more headroom w/o distortion, which bluse, country and rockers HATE -- you dont get that 'grwol' as easily, however, I believe the silverface phase inverter IS better for steel (more headroom).
3) the bias circuit was changed, which I think the blackface design was better.
One common mod that I've heard done was made famous by Ken Funk with his 'thunderfunk' design, which was basically, using the blackface bias, removed the silverface high end supression, but kept the silverface phase inverter-- to get the best of both worlds... I believe THIS to be the best thing for steel.

James - How's it going?

I am not sure but I thing that 1968 was the first year that the Fender Twin Reverb amp had a SILVER faceplate. The grill cloth had a tint of BLUE and Silver as well. In addition there was a silver TRIM aroungd the perimeter of the speaker grill cloth.

This is considered to be a non Blackface Fender Twin by those who deal in them.

A search of Fender Amp sites would prove or disprove this.

Hope the Marlen is sounding great for you!

------------------
Tim Harr - Carter D-10 8 & 9 - Troy Cook Jr Band ~ Stardust Nashville Recording Artist


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 16 June 2003 at 07:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

The thing that most forget when having
their Fender Twin Reverb blackfaced is
that the supply voltages were also different
in the 60's models compared to the 70's.
So, even though an amp tech says it's
"blackfaced"....the power transformer
would also have to be changed to bring the
later models into line with the older ones.
The other deal is the tone (or coupling)
capacitors. All the audio is fed thru
those & in the late 60's the blue & white
caps were changed...and in the 70's
changed yet again.

------------------
<a href=http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/568/jay_ganz.html>My new MP3.com page</a>

The blackface twin was the weapon of choice for many in the 70's. While Garcia originally was using a stack of Sho-Bud amps, when Cage started hanging around he switched to Twins-and then Healy and Bear developed a mod for them to optimize them for steel. There's a laundry list of stuff they did, I've got it around here somewhere. Healy still reworks Cage's twins to this day. Also, for the big shows, they used the twin as a preamp into a stack of MacIntosh 2300's into Piles of JBL's in hard trucker cabs.

If you want that Cage Country Rock sound, you'll need a twin. And a mod, because Cage really lays on the mids, and it takes a tweak or two to get the twin sounding right for all that. Recapping is the first step.

Your mileage may vary. I like it because that's the sound I'm looking for.


JB

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
Mullen Royal Precision D-10 8 & 5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 17 June 2003 at 07:27 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 17 June 2003 at 07:27 AM.]</p></FONT>

It seems to me that the transition from blackface to silver (between 67-68?) was a rather slow and confusing one. I've heard folks say, "It's a silver face, but it has blackface circuitry", and also, "That 67 blackface has the newer silverface circuitry"

All I know is my 65 bandmaster (w/45 watts) has enough kick to make ears bleed. And my 2000 Hot Rod Deluxe sounds better that many vintage Fenders I've heard. Tone is in the ear of the ampholder...

hey JB, could you list the changes made to garcia's amp and setup? i have most of the changes, but the amp setup is the stuff i am still curious about. i love that tone and would love to know how they got it. thanks

I second that JB. If you could post that it would be great.
Thanks,Jerry

About 6 months ago I was lucky enough to purchase back my old 68 twin that I had sold over 20 years ago. What a mistake that was to have ever sold it. I bought it back and it was quite beat up. I made a project out of it including having it blackfaced. I also had the slope resistor of the inside channel changed from 100K to 56K. (Brad Sarno had recommend that). It tends to bring the mids in about 800HZ rather than 500HZ stock. This is where my usually set my mids on my N400. I then bought a blown D130F and had it reconed to 4 ohms. I bought a brand new fender twin cabinet off of ebay, and made a new 15" baffle. As stated earlier, I had to make the baffle slightly smaller because I utilized the origional aluminum frame between the grill and edge of the cabinet. I probably have spent too much on this project, but Im in absolute tone heaven. I have had about every Peavey steel amp made. This thing blows all of them away for tone. Ive also seen where guys say "85 watts" is too under powered. I can say this, even the biggest gigs I play, Ive never had it past 3-4. Its way loud enough, and again, tone to die for. I have now bought another twin, mid 70s with master volume, and am going the same route. Everyone that I know thats heard this amp, now wants one just like it. Its not for sale. There is tone that you get from tubes that is just not there with any other solid state amp. I hope I didn't start another tone discussion.
Steve

My '69 Silver Face was a great amp for the 23 years I owned it. I installed a JBL D130 15" in the amp cabinet sometime in the mid 70's and the amp was used for both Tele' and Steel for the next 15 years.

Like a fool, I sold it..I was not playing and it was sitting around for about 3 or 4 years. I had also sold my Steel..what a jerk...sold it to B Seymour..Sho-Bud Pro III D10..

It was the best amp I ever owned then and now..The 'Bud wasn't bad either...

tp

The silverface twins started in the fall of 1967, but it was just a cosmetic change at first. I have a silver face twin that was made within a few weeks of the changeover. It is a blackface in every way except cosmetically. It sounds wonderful. I don't use it much these days but I'd never sell the thing. It paid for itself long ago.

The later silverface twins are real nice, too, and they are bargains.

I too was able to purchase my original TWIN back about a year ago. I sold it as I just had to have that WEBB ya see! I don't regret selling it, but I was sure tickled when I called the guy I had sold it to over 20 years ago and he asked if I was interested in buying it back. Yep, at the time I was playing out with it, I had put a 15" JBL D-130F in it and yes, I cut the original baffle out from the two (12")'s to accomodate the 15" speaker didn't care back then. It was a silver-faced model w/master volume. I think it was around a 1971. The speaker had to be reconed as it had deteriorated but overall shape is just the way I sold it 20 years ago.

Here's a note I got from Healy. Much of the stuff he did for garcia and Cage he would have to do himself, and he doesn't anymore, and never did for the general public. But for most users, this should make a big difference

<I>
Hi John, I'm not sure just what you are looking for but the standard Fender
equalizer controls are shelving for the top and bottom with a "turnover" of
about 500hz. If you slide the turnover point to 800 hz. you will need to change
the mid eq. The "Q" if the midrange is quite broad (about 2 to 3 octaves). The
"bright" switch is about 6-8Khz. The problem with changing any of the "knee"
points is the corresponding interactional changes. You can't really just change
one aspect of the total equalization network without accounting for the final
outcome. I mean, you can but the results may not be what you might expect.

Let me suggest a place to start: First, in addition to changing all of the
caps, you will want to change all of the plate resistors for non-inductive metal
film versions. Also change all of the cathode resistors and use tantalum
capacitors for the bypass caps (I use military grade axial lead versions).
This, especially for steel, will greatly improve the high frequencies yielding
the pure and clearer bell like tones. This is very important. Next, after you
have chosen the tubes (no matter who says what, American made tubes are way, far
the best) you will want to carefully examine the phase inverter / driver
network. This is, as they say, where the rubber-hits-the-road. Finally, the
careful setting of the bias has a lot to do with the good sound. There are a
few other things but this is the main idea.

The bass control has the least distortion when set around three which is also
the best balance point for low end punch while maintaining clarity.

Try treble set at 4 to 7 depending on the room you are playing in, the mids all
the way up, the bass about 3. If you do all this to the amp and try these
settings you will be pleasantly surprised. JBL speakers aren't my favorites by
far. The thing with speakers is: what ever you're used to or what ever you
like. There's no real right or wrong, it's a matter of taste. Good luck, Dan</I>


There you have it

JB

I might add that Ken Fox thinks the bias should be at 30 or 32. He's seen the reissues particularly at about 16 from the factory. Currently, I'm getting a bid on this job. My amp guy is wound up to try it out.

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
Mullen Royal Precision D-10 8 & 5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 17 June 2003 at 09:38 PM.]</p></FONT>

Some fantastic information and comments, here!!! These Fender twins are fantastic for mods---- like an old chevy engine, lets try this cam with this carb, ect.----(They weigh about like a 454 block, too, but worth the trouble to me!!!)>>>>>Tim Harr: Tried to e-mail you a couple times, but seems they wouldn't go through. Have you guys been pickin' in Heber Springs lately?? Really a neat gig down on the river. Ya'll were sure tearin' it up when I seen you there last time!!! The Marlen is fantastic, especially through my twin.

Should mention that the 135 watt ultralinear Twins (I think from 75 on, with push-pull master) cannot be "blackfaced" without changing the transformers, so it's not economical. However, these amps have their own sound, and while many may poo-poo it, it has its place. So doggone heavy though!

I don't know the tech stuff but it seems to my ear when Fender amps are about 20 to 30 years old something opens up in the sound. They start acting a bit more like class A amps in terms of dynamic response and seem to be a hair louder.

Is something wearing out in there that causes this ? My guess is that more voltage is getting into something.

Bob

Bob, you may be on to something.... if someone would look at the original schematics for the old fender amps, you'd see the voltages/transformers etc are designed around 115vac input. Say the plate voltage was 460v on these amps (a 1:4 step up ratio)... now the power companies feed us with between 125-130vAC. that 10-15v gain going into the amp can give some of these older amps upwards of a 40-50v gain on the plates, BIG difference in tone

Along the same lines as Bob H.'s post, I've seen more than one amp due for the normal 20 year maintenance stuff, where the owner has a recap and tune up and then claims that it no longer sounds 'right', all the tone is gone. Usually, this is a blues or rock player.

I suppose a 'soft' power supply, general loss of tightness, power and clarity resulting from tired components is a desirable side affect for those guys?

I went through the whole BF deal a while back with my '69 Twin and got a lot of help from Bob Metzger and some other guys that don't post a whole lot anymore. Here's the thread, it's got a ton of info about not only BFing, but tubes, Fender mods, etc.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/000431.html

I horse-traded a blackface Bandmaster head for a Silverface Pro Reverb, which had been chronically blowing out resistors in the reverb circuit. While troubleshooting it, I found a small pair of pliers with a Fender code (Fnnn) stamped on them under a section of wiring...almost certainly lurking there since it was made!
The speakers were pretty well shot, so I put in a pair of (Eminence?) 12's fresh out of a Twin Reverb re-issue. For clean playing with single coil pickups, its sound was as good as it gets IMHO. Naturally I later horse-traded it for another amp (Silverface Bassman head).
When I later heard its new owner playing in a club, I knew right off I'd been horse-whipped (again).
"Blackfacing" that amp would probably make it worse for squeaky-clean Tele use...but by how much?
No one "Silverfaces" Blackfaces, do they?
INFO: http://www.ampwares.com/
Look for the Fender Amp Field Guide there.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rich Paton on 19 June 2003 at 01:37 AM.]</p></FONT>

I would say evn if you dont' completely blackface the circuit, taking the supression caps off the output tubes does a LOT for bringing life back to the tone and would give a nice clean tele tone... it's the modified phase inverter that the 'blueze' players dont like, cuz' it keeps the amp too clean... in other words, those who want clean, the silverfacesstyle PI is the best route

Back in the mid 70's I had a Vibrasonic
100 watter with a JBL. It sounded great
but still broke up when I really pushed it.
Especially with the C6th neck.

------------------
<font size=1><b>

<a href=http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/568/jay_ganz.html>My new MP3.com page</a>

<SMALL> taking the supression caps off the output tubes does a LOT for bringing life back to the tone and would give a nice clean tele tone</SMALL>

Absolutely... I BF'd my Twin one mod at a time basically, and that was the single most dramatic improvement. It was like taking a blanket off of the amp.

Jay, What do you mean "had"?????
Do mean to say that you acually got rid of an amp somewhere along the line? Somehow I kinda doubt that. Regards,Fred

I currently play mostly through an Evans FET 500 small cabinet. If I were to purchase a new Twin Reverb, how would it sound compared to:
1) The Evans
2) The older Twin Reverbs I just read about.

Should I try to find an older Twin Reverb? If so, what year(s)?
Thanks,
Jim

------------------
Mullen D-10
Boss RV3
Evans FET 500

Sho-Bud Pro II D10
Peavey Nashvile 400
Fender Stratocaster

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>I currently play mostly through an Evans FET 500 small cabinet. If I were to purchase a new Twin Reverb, how would it sound compared to:
1) The Evans
2) The older Twin Reverbs I just read about.
Should I try to find an older Twin Reverb? If so, what year(s)?
Thanks,
Jim

</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a '66 Twin and a '73 Twin. About a year ago I did a week at some Indian Casino and they had one of the Reissue '65 Twins so I used it for the week. I did the same gig last month, but this time I took MY amp.
The reissue twin sounded very brittle, not bright and punchy just thin and brittle. It had no volume or clarity, but then mine have JBL's and NOS American tubes.

You can still find Silverface twins for less then the new Reissues. I bought my '73 Twin about three years ago for $550 I changed the tubes, caps, and speakers.So I have about $800-$900 into it. If you look around and shop for one you can find a decent '70's twin for under $700. I'm kind of starting to like silverface one better than the blackface one.