Digital 8 track workstations?

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Does any one have any experience or words of wisdom concerning the mid range Digital workstations, such as the Boss BR-8 ( soon to be the BR 1180) , Tascam 788 , Fostex V series or Zoom products.? It's close to decision time and my feeling is that I am leaning towards the Boos or Zoom products.

User friendly is not really my issue, but sound quality and durablilty is .

Thanks
TP

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Hey Tony,

Get a Roland VS-890. You can pick up a used one with all the goodies for $600 to $700. It has 6GB internal drive, built in (no card) SUPERB effects including mic modeling (make your SM58 sound like an expensive studio mic) and mastering toolkit to beef up your mix, and optional CD burning.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Look at a Yamaha AW2816. I think this is the low end of the "Pro Audio" gear.
I like it because all 8 tracks are at your fingertips and on the display at the same time. It will do 16 tracks, but I won't.

I wanted a self contained unit that would take signals in and burn a CD. It is portable.

Has XLR inputs and phantom power on two inputs. HAs one high impedance input for guitars, steels, bass.

Been using it almost a year. It is operating all the time. Playing CD's, playing one minus tracks over and over, playing the drum machine, recording old LP's and burning CD's, and making new one minus tracks.

FYI
FWIW

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Fender Stringmaster T-8
PV N400

Matt Steindl · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

Tony, my vote is for the Tascam 788(unless you are willing to spend over $1000 for a stand alone unit). After all, they have been the kings of home recording since they developed the porta-studio back in the day. I love it because it is simple to use, but if you want to dig deep, it has most of the stuff that Michael mentioned above(not sure about making a SM57 sound like a Neuman though?).

The bottom line, is that there are tons of choices out there, and you head will swim w/ all of the new models flooding the market these days. There is a wellspring of info out there. I would suggest going to the user groups and eavesdrop on some of the technical discussions. Most manufactureres like Tascam.com have the user groups on their sites, otherwise just serch out some home recording sites and check it out.

One thing to make sure your check out, is the resolution that your new studio will track in. Zoom and Korg advertise that they record in 24 bit and have 12(or whatever) tracks available, but in actuallity, they only play back 12 track in 16 bit. and 8 at 24.

One other knock which I have heard over and over(but I have no personal experience) is to stay away from Fostex, as their A/D converters are less expensive and harsh(less musical) than most of the competitors.

Bottom line, whatever you end up w/ for less than $1500 will give you more firepower than $5000 would have bought 10 years ago. You are in for a treat, because the world of digital recording is a blast!!! Oh yeah, buy some sunglasses to bring to work because you are gonna be up all night recording w/ you killer new machine!!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Matt Steindl · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

I went back and re-read your initial post, and you state that you "are leaning towards Boss or Zoom". I gotta tell ya that I have a zoom drum machine(which I love), but the R&D on it seems kinda screwy, as the midi implementations arent quite up to snuff. My concern w/ the zoom macine, would be that these guys are soooooo new to the recording game, that their machine might not be so great. I havent researched their machine, but would be worried about spending money on such a newcomer. The $200 you would save today could be a big headache down the line. They also do the false advertising thing claiming their machine has x amount of tracks, when it really only does Y amount at 24 bit.

As for the Boss machines, do they still record to a zip drive and smart media? If so, I would pass. I think that you need to buy a machine that has a good hard drive.

Spend the extra bucks and go w/ Tascam or Roland. They have proven they know what they are doing!!!!!

Let us know which way you go!!!!!!!!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I just found this comparison. A lot of info on a single page.

FWIW

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Whatever you get it's almost a given that you'll need to buy THAT companys' CD burner. There's all kinds of proprietary crap and formatting and on and on. And you WILL need a CD burner, not only to burn CDs but to back up the "data" in the machine as well.

Cruise the web sites of the different companies and educate yourself first. Really compare the specs. I'm sure that Roland users love their machines as much as Tascam users do theirs, and Korg, and Fostex, and Yamaha, and Zoom. One thing that I would not do is to get a machine that uses ZIP or any other disks. Get one with a hard drive and be done with it.

There was a post on the Tascam 788 web site in the last year or so as to why their machine was better than several of the Roland ones. (Keep in mind that this was on the Tascam web site.)

All of that said, I have a Tascam 788 with the CD burner and absolutely love it. I have never regretted buying it. There are features in there that I'll most likely never use; of course, I also said that about some of the other features that I use every time I sit down with it. One thing that I really like about it is that it has two effects processors. One of them also has a selectable configuration for guitars with all of the distortions, etc. You can sit there with the headphones on and blow your brains out, and the person in the next room can still hear a pin drop.

Two things that you're going to find:
a) I don't know how anybody ever did anything with less than 8 tracks, and
b) I don't know how anybody ever did anything with tape.

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Earl Foote · From: Houston, Tx, USA

It just depends on what you want to do. I have the BR-8 and love it. I mostly work by myself so the fact that it will only record a maximum of 2 tracks at once is not a problem. The Zip drive has not been a problem either. I can record for six minutes on all 8 tracks. If I cut and paste repetitive parts, I can record longer. For more information on Roland/Boss workstations, go to www.vsplanet.com

Later,
Earl

Larry Clark · From: Herndon, VA.

Check out Electronic Musician magazine. They have had hands on tests of virtually all of the digital 8-tracks currently available.

erik · Posted 22 May 2002 3:38 pm

I posted a review of the ZOOM 1044 in the recording forum. Do a search.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

great posts guys. Many thanks. I have been researching all of the "Websites" and have probably read and compared every spec out there. The Zoom and Boss machines state 16 bit recording with 24 bit processing, the tascam 788 is a true 24 bit as are others of higher price. The 2 tracks at one time doesn't really bother me as it is really intended for totally personal use. I have actually thought about stepping up slightly and the Roland has caught my attention as well. I am not in-experienced as I recently dismantled and sold off my entire home midi studio, DX7 , Korg Modules, Cakewalk Pro, 16 channel board and 8 track tape. I now use and really like my tascam 424 deck and will go digital as well with one of the workstations. I have actually lookeds at the zoom's and although they are filled with stuff they do come across as lower quality. The new Boss machine, BR1180 uses a 20 G hard drive rather than zip disks and has 11 tracks with dedicated drum tracks. They are not avalibale yet so I really can't say. The Boss BR 8 also appears to be a fine machine as well,.

Thanks all for the feedback
TP

ajm · From: Los Angeles

I sort of do it how you're not supposed to. I sync my drum machine up to the recorder and record it on tracks 7/8. Usually at the same time I'll put down a guitar part as well (I usually go back and re-do it eventually). In this situation, I could not get by with only 2 tracks of recording capability. From this point on, however, I piece things together one instrument at a time so it's no problem.

For some reason (don't ask me why) I prefer putting the drums on 2 tracks. I know that the preferred way is to not use a track or 2 and do the final mixes with "live" drums routed through the mixer. But doing it this way I have the drum parts saved for future use. Which brings up a good point: Try to buy a drum machine where you can save them to cassette or through MIDI to some other device. I have a Zoom 123 and you can't save the patterns/songs when you run out of user memory.

If I need to change a pattern I do it and then just re-record the drums since they're synced up. It sounds like you may know this, since you have some experience already.

BTW, I have a friend who just ordered a BR-1180CD. If he plans on using it for live recording and doesn't have a mixer he may be in for a surprise. I believe that it only records 2 tracks at a time.

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

One really cool thing about the newest Rolands (VS-1824CD and CDX-1 DiscLab) is their ability to load drum loops from the CD-ROM and sequence them just like another track. For all of us without the means to record real drums, this is a big advance. Anybody doing this?

VS-1824CD

CDX-1 DiscLab

Matt Steindl · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

Dumping loops from a CD would be handy(but I can do that on my PC anyway).

Speaking of Abbey Road, I had the pleasure of sitting in on a recording session using the actual monitors that Abbey Road and Dark side of the moon were recorded on. I thought that was pretty cool!!!

Does the new Boss machine record in 24 bit? I think that to only use 16 bit in these modern times would be going backwards. The sound in 24 bit is awesome on my 788!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

The new Boss machines record in 16 bit format with 24 bit processing, as do the Zooms and the Fostex. The processesing is 24 bit. I have discussed this 16 vs 24 bit deal with several Pro's and they are of the opinion that the 16 bit workstations are really not a drawback given the totality of what they are intended for., I was reminded that we have evolved from 2 track tape to 4 tack tape to 8 track to 16 to blah blah blah and when digital started it was somewere in the 4 bit or even 8 bit processing and the past ten years or so have given us great CD's by the big record companies at 16 bit. So where do you draw the line for a small home recorder ? In my quest I have ruled out the Zoom 1044 as it just appears to be a little lacking in the "look at me" catagory. I have listend to all the drum programs and they are pretty much useless for me. Not one 3/4 on the program list. How am I gonna play Waltz across texas without that ?? Huh ?? So I am back to the Boss 1180, maybe one of the Rolands and possibly the Tascam 788. And the search continues...hopefully not forever.. My friend asked my why I am waiting and I quickly reminded him
that even if I had a new machine today I still can't play worth a lick !
tp

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

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I don't know how anybody ever did anything with tape.
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Ever hear Abbey Road?

quote:
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I don't know how anybody ever did anything with less than 8 tracks.
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Ever hear Abbey Road?

Is this a double post?

(smiling while in the midst of piloting an eighty plus fader mix at the moment...)

Matt Steindl · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

If you plan on doing lots of bouncing, post editing, and mixing down, you will see that in 16 bit, the sound loss is noticable! Just because cds play at 16 bit doesnt mean it is good for multi tracking. Get a 24 bit machine, and you will hear the difference!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Matt, my initial purpose is to most likely stay within the bounds of the machine, I have never been a fan of bouncing and have always felt that the virgin track is the one to use. I can see myself using 6 to 8 with a possible bounce of two tracks now and again. Stereo Drums, bass, two accoustic tracks ( split left and right ) Tele', Steel and two vocals maybe...sync to a keyboard ? maybe..With a mid project master to CD and then back to the deck it all seems very possible without bouncing, what do ya think ? The primary purpose of this machine would be for a home grown Steel CD someday..and backing tracks to use at shows.
tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 May 2002 at 02:26 AM.]

Matt Steindl · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

Sounds like a winner! One thing I do, is that I use my 788 as a launch pad to doing deeper edits on my PC based software. In other words, I use the convenience of my 788 to get the basic structure and suff ready, then dump em to Cubase or Cool Edit on my computer to use some plugins and mixdown, then burn em on my pc cd burner. It seems like an extra step, but I am so comfortable w/ the quality and ease of my 788 that it is worth it.

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

"Just because cds play at 16 bit doesnt mean it is good for multi tracking. Get a 24 bit machine, and you will hear the difference!!!!"

It's funny--I have been cutting a lot of my stuff at 16 bit lately. My workstation can mix bit depths (you can take one pass at 24 bit, and then another right next to it at 16 bit). Both myself and many of my pickiest clients have picked the 16 bit as the better sounding in many blindfold tests, especially for punchier stuff. For acoustic stuff, I tend to like the resolution of the 24 bit most of the time, but I am cutting a lot of 16. Saves a lot of disk space, too....

(it's a Paris Pro system)

[This message was edited by John Macy on 24 May 2002 at 12:10 PM.]

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

I have a ? for anybody related to workstations. My initial quest was to set up PC recording system, which began as a need for a sound card in order to run BIAB. Now the 788 is looking like a real good buy for a convenient stand alone set up. Is it possible to run BIAB with out a pc sound card via interacting a workstation like the 788 with the PC?

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Steve,

The Digital Audio Workstation will not take the place of a MIDI sound generator (your sound card). Band In a Box generates MIDI tracks that can be heard only by triggering an internal or external module.

And Tony, one thing about the Roland (and others) is that you can record on virtual tracks. You have only 8 faders across on the VS-890, but you have 16 virtual tracks for each of the eight, i.e. 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, etc. When you comp or bounce tracks you don't have record over the original tracks. So if you don't like your comp or want to try different mixes and effects, all the original tracks are still there. As for virgin tracks, you can make as many identical copies of your original as you like and there is no audible difference.

ajm · From: Los Angeles

The virtual track thing on the 788 is something that must be used to be appreciated. As Michael said, you can try as many takes at a guitar solo as you want (within reason, I think the 788 has 99 virtual track capability) without destroying any of them. On a tape machine you don't have this.

If you get different parts on different tracks that you like, then there are the cut/paste/copy functions to further blow your mind. I personally don't envision ever using this, but to be honest I didn't realize the worth of the virtual track feature either until I used it, so who knows.

As for the PC versus portastudio route, there was a write up on the Tascam site a while ago about this listing the pros and cons of each. Do a little searching and you'll find it.

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Another ? for Matt or anyonelse regarding 788 and PC interactions: If your loading a bunch of tracks that youve recorded on the 788 into your PC for further mixdowns and processing, any special requirements for the PC interface...such as # of digital in's ?

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