Am I a steel amplifier heretic?

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 12 Feb 2002 8:21 pm

I don't own a real steel amp, and I've recently been considering buying one. I can't really audition what's available because I live on a pedal steel desert island (San Jose, CA). I've historically been practicing only with my MSA (with a touch of Lexicon MPX 100 reverb) direct into my stereo system with studio headphones (mostly) or through good quality hifi speakers. No steel amp coloration in the chain. However, I did get a chance to try my MSA through a Nashville 1000 recently. And I frankly I much prefer the uncolored (mostly flat) sound of the unequalized MSA steel through my stereo setup, or even through an old hifi receiver and some Radio Shack compact bookshelf speakers. Ouch! Am I a steel amp heretic, or what? The Nash 1000's owner candidly told me he had reservations about the sound of his MCI through the 1000, too. He also used to own two Nashville 400s and he said they had an even more concentrated midrange sound than the 1000.

Please don't misunderstand.... I respect the Nashville 1000 as a solid amplifier with a great reputation (the 400, too). But it looks like I'm out of the corral regarding the sound of these de facto standard steel amps. (There's no accounting for taste, eh?) Since steel amps aren't made to be flat/uncolored, I don't know what amp to look for. I think I need more of a keyboard amp or even a PA arrangement. Has anybody else here found this to be true of their own taste in steel amplification?

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Bill (steel not out of the woodshed) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?
[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 12 February 2002 at 08:29 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 12 Feb 2002 8:41 pm

On an old Fender Twin back in the 70's I couldn't get enough power for the country rock gigs I was playing at the time. Somewhere I read about a quick mod that involved cutting a wire to bypass all the tone controls on the amp. It did give me a lot more power and I liked the sound of my MSA better that way.

I guess that was about the same as what you're talking about. Maybe MSA's sound better with no tonal coloration.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 13 Feb 2002 3:08 am

I'd suggest you work on a "real" steel guitar (or any guitar) amp sound. The "Hi-Fi" sound is not what is desired for steel. You obviously have got used to it since it was all you have, but it is not the desired sound.

You need to step back and re-evaluate again. Engineers spend years getting the "voicing" correct for certain instruments and Peavey goes a step further in getting the voicing tailored in speakers too. If it wasn't necessary companies such as Peavey, Fender, or whoever would not put the large amount of $$$ into research and development of musical instrument amplification systems.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Feb 2002 4:22 am

I would warmly state that , "Your sound is your choice" Although the Steel amps are good, maybe a tad better than good , they are not the end of the day final solution, just another choice. I have a 400, it is very very mid rangy..I generally just turn the mid down almost all the way, just a tad from off. Don't get me wrong ,the amp sounds great, excellent power and tone. If the 1000 is not your thing there are other choices. Walker makes a stereo amp for steel, I have a friend who uses a Stereo amp set up for his steel with 2x12" peavey cabs and it sounds great. He also has 2 N1000's and prefers the stereo amp set-up. Me, I'm still in the agony stage, not really certain which "final"direction I will go. I have used a Twin with a 15 for over 15 years and that was also a good choice, but not the end of the world for me.I plan on trying a 1000 but the jury is still out. When I practice I use a direct input to my tascam with reverb ( headphones) or I use my Fender Delux which also sounds awesome, just not enough power to cut a gig. I would recommend practicing at volume or close to it now and again with your giging amp as there are tone differences which you may find effect your playing and phrasing. Headphones are great but you can't hear the "room" and how it might effect your tone.

You can see I have been a lot of help here !

TP[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2002 at 04:25 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2002 at 04:31 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2002 at 04:34 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2002 at 04:36 AM.]

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 13 Feb 2002 5:27 am

Bill, I too am a rebel. I have used two speaker cabinets with 2-12" Jensen speakers and one Jensen horn driver in each cabinet for 30 plus years. Still the same speakers. About 3 years ago I bought a new Peavey 560XR amp and the sound it produced was acceptable, but not really what I wanted. This year Peavey came out with the M-P5plus and what a fine amp and the difference it made was so nice. The M-P5PLUS has spring reverb and they done away with all the digital slides for tone. My kind of amp and sound.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 13 Feb 2002 5:52 am

the sound it produced was acceptable

Ooh. Now I'm getting excited!

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The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Fred Murphy · Post by **Fred Murphy** » 13 Feb 2002 6:59 am

I would suggest that if you have been to St. Louis, or some of the other shows where Buddy and some other greats have played, and you have heard their tone, and are still satisfied with what you have,I wouldn't buy anything else. If not then I would do so to get an idea of what is the best sound that can come from a steel guitar. Everybody hears different and wants something different out of their instrument and music, so maybe you have the perfect tone already for your taste.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 13 Feb 2002 7:59 am

Bill, If you like that Hi Fi sound then you should try a Peavey Session 500. It doesn't have that honk that the Nashville and Vegas 400 have. I found that the 1000 sounded a lot like my Vegas. The 500 would also make a great boat anchor because it is one heavy sucker, but I still think it was one of the best sounding steel amp they made.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Feb 2002 8:34 am

There are a lot of good combinations out there. Right now, I'm using a rack setup which consists of a lot of Tube Works stuff.
Preamp, spring reverb, and amp. Talk with Herby Wallace about it.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Feb 2002 8:43 am

I have to respectfully differ with our esteemed moderator. I practice through a Digitech 2112 with the tube preamp a blazin', into my Alesis RA-100 reference amp and nearfield studio monitors and that's EXACTLY what I want my stage rig to sound like. In fact, it's the 'gold standard' by which I measure the sound quality of a steel amp. And few can measure up.

Dif'rent strokes.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 February 2002 at 08:43 AM.]

Dave Frye · Post by **Dave Frye** » 13 Feb 2002 8:52 am

Bill, On Monday i bought and ole Fender Pro Reverb for chuch and it sounds great. Don,t discount the ole Fender sound. Shop around, you might be surprised what you find! See ya ole steel buddy Ole Dave Frye

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 13 Feb 2002 9:08 am

I think most people who don't like Peavey steel amps don't understand the mid-range parametric tone controls.There's two knobs that interact with each other - one sweeps through the midrange and the other one boosts or cuts the frequency that the sweep knob is pointing at.This can produce DRASTIC midrange differences and the midrange is where most of the potential tonal difference exists.So if you take some time and just fish around through the mids with those two controls,it's easy to just dial out undesirable honk.Once that is understood and exploited and combined with the bass,highs and presence knobs,I think you will see what those amps are capable of.Patch in a high quality digital reverb or multi-efx unit w/some thoughtfully tweeked presets and you're ready for the big time. -MJ-

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 13 Feb 2002 9:33 am

"Tone" is in the ear of the beholder. I find myself using various amplifiers here at Peavey, just so I can relay my impression of certain guitar amps to consumers should they ask what non steel amps will work for steel applications. What I have found is that if I use a non steel amp for awhile, my ear will "tune in" to that amplifiers' sound and it will begin to become the "norm". But, the real test is when I return to a Nashville or Session amp that is voiced for steel. It all comes back as to why I should use a steel amp for steel applications.

Jack Stoner is correct in stating that manufacturers spend a lot of money and time in the developement of a steel amp. We at Peavey use the information provided by our dealers, endorsement artists, discussion forums and consumer input in the design of a specific product for a specific application. In the case of a steel guitar, power handling, cabinet design and materials, speaker design and materials, equalization filter types and amp features such as the pre eq pedal patch affect the final outcome. This same R&D process applies to guitar and pickup manufacturers as they have to know what customers prefer and will buy.

More than likely your stereo preamp and speakers are "voiced" for pre recorded playback music, so most likely they are "colored" as well. No amp that I know of is "uncolored" when it comes to sound as most have a preamp circuit. That is the reason that certain parameters are apply to specific types of amps.

You may prefer a keyboard amp over a steel amp. The only way to find out is naturally to try one out. But, a keyboard amp is designed for keyboard use, therefore it will be "voiced" for a keyboard's frequency range and other keyboard characteristics and features.

Since the first note of a steel or six string electric was played through the first amplifier, manufacturers have learned and applied their knowledge to the design and improvement of their amp that will allow you to get the maximum use out of the product.

The bottom line is that tone is in the "ear of the beholder". In the meantime, here is the link to Peavey products; http://www.peavey.com/html/mi.html

Mike Brown
Peavey Electronics Corporation

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 13 Feb 2002 9:11 pm

I think Jim Smith may have hit on a good point, which I had also thought of myself....

Maybe MSA's sound better with no tonal coloration.

I know that a lot can go into refining an amplifier product for its intended purpose (I actually work for a maker of audio amps). It also makes a lot of sense that one can grow accustomed to a particular sound and struggle to make a change to a new or different 'standard'. Still, I just plain like the sound of my MSA uncolored--at least for now. Even in the light of Nashville recordings, most of which were probably done through well-known steel amplifiers.

My plan is to do the following.... I'm actually going to try taking my 'hifi' speakers and a 'hifi' amp to an upcoming jam session and use them as an amplifier. At 100W they should stand on their own ok. My 'flat' theory may fall apart when I'm competing with a drummer, bassist, and guitarist. I'll have my aging Roland Jazz-Chorus 50 amp with me (a 'real' guitar amp) to fall back on if I end up with my tail tucked between my legs.

Oh yes, another guitar (6-string) player recommeded I try an "accoustic guitar amplifier". I know little about these, but they're worth a gander.

Many of you are probably saying, "Bill, this course has been run before. You'll come back to the barn after all is said and done." Maybe so. But in the process I'm having fun.

Aaron Schiff · Post by **Aaron Schiff** » 14 Feb 2002 9:11 am

Bill,it has been 30 years since I lived in the Bay Area, but Jim Webb's shop is in Antioch and that can't be much more than 70 miles from San Jose. As I recall it's 680 through Pleasonton to Concord then east on State 4 to Antioch. Perhaps I get a little cavalier since my closest K-Mart is an hour away and the steel shop is 300 miles.

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 14 Feb 2002 9:59 am

Bill, if you are playing in a complete live band situation, I think that you will find that your steel will be "buried" in the mix using a 50 watt amp. But, let us know how it goes.

Tony Orth · Post by **Tony Orth** » 14 Feb 2002 10:32 am

I've notice a very big difference in playing at home vs band/stage situation. My Session 400 Limited sounds a bit edgy(midrangy) at home. However, in a live band situation, at stage volumes, it blends and sounds just great.

The lows and highs come alive at the higher volumes while the mids are needed to cut through the mix.

Tony

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 14 Feb 2002 10:37 am

Tone is in the ear of the beholder! Last weekend I spent about 10 hours miking different amps to lay down some PSG tracks, and I got somewhat lackluster results. Last night, I got the recording bug, and didnt want to be up all night moving mics. around and running cables. So I ran my Dekley direct into my board and sent it to tape(HD). After a little EQing and adding some delay and reverb, it sounded better than all of my agonizing cab. miking experiments.

I am a huge advocate of having speakers pushing air when you record, but maybe I can get better results going direct. Who knows?

If it feels good do it!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 14 Feb 2002 3:02 pm

Hello Bill,
look at http://www.steelguitarshop.de and than "Gebrauchtes/Vermischtes(used)". There you can find a steelguitar tubeamp "Reu O Grande" from Reussenzehn with no tonal coloration, because the amp has only ONE buttom for "Brilliance"!

Horst
(Emmons P/P / Webb 6-14)

Raybob · Post by **Raybob** » 15 Feb 2002 11:16 am

For recording, I like to record "direct" finding any possible coloration to my sound available with the studio programs. For playing live, I really don't think the amp matters so much as long as you have a good speaker(s) that can handle the volumes without distortion. I used to have an early Session 400 with JBL years ago. Later had a Twin w/JBLs, now currently use a Session 400 Wedge or 69 Bandmaster w/2 Jensens, depending on the gig. If it's a big gig, many times, they use a D.O. box so what I hear is NOT what they hear.

When I say I don't think the amp matters so much, I think if you heard Buddy Emmons play through a Session, Nashville, Webb, Evans, or old Fender, I think you would swear it was the best tone you ever heard, no matter which amp he was using.

Raybob

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Good tunes

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 15 Feb 2002 12:44 pm

Bill, this is repeat of what I said on another thread concerning amps and tone.

You might want to try a tube pre-amp with your choice of power amps or combo amps. Having tried many amps over the past 25 years with steel guitar, I am pretty satisfied with what I'm using now. I played thru a Fender Vibrosonic for many years and got used to that (tube amp) sound. The drawbacks of Fender Twins and Vibrosonics are much discussed on this forum, I won't re-hash this, except to say most steelers love the sound of Fender amps.

About two years ago I got a Tubeworks Real Tube 2 pre-amp and am running it in a rack rig which includes a 120W Gallien-Krueger Micro MLS amp and a 1X15 closed-back cab with an EV-15 (8 ohm). This is the best sounding rig I've ever had, with the bonus of great portability.

The TubeWorks pre-amp, gets results with several combinations of rigs. I've used it with my Nashville 1000 and with my Peavey Musician Mk. IV head run thru the 15" speaker cab. The G-K micro is a little underpowered at 120 watts, but I've managed to compensate for the lack of power by creatively miking and positioning the speaker. Both the pre-amp and the G-K power amp are very compact, lightweight components. If you get the TubeWorks Real Tube 2, be sure to get the "steel mod." It enables the pre-amp to handle the pedal steel guitar pickup. If you've ever played thru a Fender amp and like that tone, you'll probably like this piece of gear.

To me, onstage sound is real important; try miking the amp and positioning it so you can hear it above the mix. If you're miked up, just point the speaker where you can hear it above the other guys and keep the volume under control.

--JR

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 15 Feb 2002 3:37 pm

Forgot to mention, the above rig includes stomp box effects. They include a Boss EQ, Boss analog delay and an ART digital reverb. To me, reverb and delay are not an option. Well, reverb anyway. Lots of great FX are out there, I prefer individual units to multi-effects processors.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 15 Feb 2002 11:13 pm

My evolution in sound has been:
a) getto blaster (Why? Cause it was there)
b) home stereo
c) Peavey Classic Chorus 212 (for six string)
d) Vegas 400 w/ Peavey Mod.

I also own a Roland VS-840.

Overall, I believe I get better tonal separation on bass strings using the home stereo. A very transparent sound.

The Peavey 400 seems to provide sweeter midrange, and less listening fatigue when practicing.

The Chorus 212 definately causes listening fatigue, but when playing with other instruments, this sure helps the steel cut through the mix.

Recording: I prefer my sound if recording direct, albeit with a slight reduction at 800 Hz and a very wide notch (eg. Q=0.5).

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 16 Feb 2002 8:28 am

A preamp or a mixer with a Mackie (or other) powered monitor may be the way to go if you want a flat or hi-fi type type sound. HERETICS CREATE CHANGE! Dogma is bad, it fights change, and change is good. Otherwise, we would still be using a bone slide on an old Harmony 6 string, not that that is so bad either.

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Steels and Guitars. Emmons PP, Nationals, Dan-O's, ES 340, Tube Amps only! "Blue Sparks From Hell" and "Kings in Disguise".

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 25 Feb 2002 12:47 pm

Well, I just got a small dose of reality. I haven't done my above-mentioned "hifi" amp experiment yet, but I did put my Roland 50W guitar amp next to a Peavey keyboard amp (which is intentionally flatter, or more "hifi"), both getting feed from my MSA. In the band setting I was in, the Roland seemed to sound better. The keyboard amp was too cutting. Hmmmm. More to come.....

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Bill (steel not out of the woodshed) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?