Cause of Dulling Tone With Effects?

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Does anyone know the exact cause of the dulling of tone caused by stomp box effects in line? Is it the result of all of the grounds or the positive lines accumulating? The dulling effect of tone is apparent even when all boxes are in the off mode.
Is there an effects loop box available that can totally take the effects out of the loop with a switch when not using the effects? A bypass unit? Should be easy to build one if there is a 9 pole switch available along with some isolated input jacks for the effects side? Anyone have experience with this?
Thanks
Dennis

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Many times the built in "switchless" circuitry in some effects boxes still have a amplifier in the circuit and many of these, the amp is tailored to the guitar. The more of these that are in the line the more the tone thing becomes apparent. Some may even overload due to lack of headroom.

I had built a rack unit with several stomp boxes inside (the guts out of the stomp boxes) plus AC power supplies to eliminate batteries. I also had an MXR micro amp on the output to compensate for any loss. I had everything switched internally with dc controlled relays that switched both the input and output of the effect units which took the unit completely out of the chain when it wasn't in use. The relays were remotely controlled with a switch box mounted on the leg of my steel. This may seem extreme but it worked well. Everything was mounted in a two space rack unit.

Fred Murphy · From: Indianapolis, In. USA

I don't seem to have a problem with any Boss effects changing my tone when bypassed. I have with all the others, DOD for example is bad for this. Ibanez is not good either. I have never been pleased with anything made by Digitech. I have a Digitech IPS 33 B which I paid $800 for and cannot use it for that reason. It would be alright if you just wanted to put a special effect on a recording, but I can't use it on a regular basis.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I had to put EMG pickups on my recording guitar so that the sound could get through all of the 'boxes' I use in that venue and still retain its' identity, and these aren't cheap 'boxes'. I imagine, with what little I know about electronics, that the problem is in the quality of the converters that the less expensive boxes use.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Dennis, Jack has brought up some good points.Did you ever run a power saw on a 4 foot cord, then plug the power saw into a 100 foot cord? In the case of audio signals,resistance, and signal power is only part of the problem of dulling tone. Capacitance is really one of the major killers of high end. A longer guitar cord has more capacitance than a shorter guitar cord of the same type. With audio signals,I think of capacitance in terms of the amount of metal the signal goes through. The more mass of metal, the more capacitance. Usually a switch box that attempts to totally switch out different effects, with several switches, winds up adding capacitance due to the extra metal in all the connections and switches. The most important connection for protecting the high end in pickups is the first connection. To keep from milking off highs in a pickup, your first connection needs to be high impedance, and for some good results, powered from that point. Have not had a chance to look at the Morley delay you let me have at the Convention yet.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

"To keep from milking off highs in a pickup, your first connection needs to be high impedance, and for some good results, powered from that point."

I still love my Keith Hilton's Digital Sustain.

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Lee, from South Texas

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I just finished making a passive switch box that plugs into the guitar input. I put an "in" and "out" effects loop on it with those input/output jacks isolated from the box with grommets. I have a bypass switch that connects my guitar directly to the volume pedal or switches in the effects loop. I also added a switch that allows me to connect or disconnect the isolated effects ground from the rest of my guitar, rack and amp grounds. For some reason this effects ground isolation has eliminated any background noise from the stomp boxes. No hiss or frequency noises.
This little experiment seems to have worked?? On the job will be the final test.
Dennis

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

"Isolated Effects Ground"? Dennis, I am interested in knowing how you did the isolation? The way I understood it is like this: The ground on these effects are isolated. You are able to switch their isolated common ground in and out. Did you do the isolation with a transformer?

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

I have an MXR envelope filter,("auto-wah") that I use on a "per-song" basis because,when I plug it in to my guitar,it acts as a "tone control" on full bass,when the effect is off. Therefore,I only use it when I need it.

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Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Keith..
I used the small aluminum project box from radio shack, 4 1/4 inch mono input jacks, a 6 pole mini switch, a 2 pole mini off/on switch and two nylon grommets. I used the grommets on the effects input and the effects output jacks on the project box. The on/off mini switch is used to connect/disconnect the grounds of the grommeted input and output effects jacks to the project box. As it turns out I can leave the switch in the off position which leaves the stomp boxes with no ground to the rest of my equipment or guitar. The 6 pole switch connects me directly from guitar to the Hilton pedal or switches me from guitar...through the groundless effects...into the Hilton pedal. What puzzles me is...why the noise from the stomp boxes is eliminated by isolating their grounds from the rest of my equipment? I put the two pole toggle on as an experiment to see what would happen with the grounds isolated. My intention was to TOTALLY bypass the effects chain (including their grounds) and have NO chance of any tone change with the effects in off position. I thought both switches would have to be in the "on" position or "off" position. As it turns out, the effects still function without the grounds making contact with the rest of my gear. This also elimnates any noise bleeding into my amp. Why??? I don't know???
I have a DOD Digital Delay stomp box that I would like to use for a slower setting on slow songs and not touch my rack delay setting. The DOD has a slight high pitch frequency that bleeds into my amp. This ground isolation eliminated it. Since the switch box plugs into my guitar jack, I can leave my stomp boxes on the floor and leave selected ones on and ready and then switch them on or off from the box.

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

Yes. There is a loop selector made by Boss that will serve this function. It may have a dual function as a 9V adapter as well, I cannot recall. Buck

Dave Robbins · From: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)

I use the Boss "loop selector" (I beleive it is the LS-2). This is a good unit. I can use it to "dead-end" the tuner, and it can be used to "loop" effects so they are in-line when you aren't using them. There are many other uses for the unit as well.
And "yes" it can be used to power the other units as well so only one "wallwart" is needed. (Man, I hate them "wallwarts!)

Dave

[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 07 November 2001 at 11:28 PM.]

Blake Hawkins · From: Florida

Congratulations on your box and the solving of your problem!!
I will attempt to off a little explanation
as to your excellent results.
The grounds for your effects boxes are being made up through another route. Probably the power supply if you a common one for the stomp boxes. Other than that, if they are mounted on a metal plate that might do it.
An electrical signal requires two connections to function. If you get a signal there are two connectios somewhere.
Sometimes the second connection is capacitive or inductive but it is there.
So you have eliminated the ground loops
and made the system sound.
Blake

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Blake...Bingo! Over the weekend another local steel mentioned the power supply grounds. If I was using a 9v battery, possibly I would get no signal? But the power supply is creating the ground for connection. So, yes the effects are isolated from the guitar and cancelling the loop and the noise.
Hopefully this will work for other players having this problem.
Dennis

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I can see now where the shielded ground on the patch cables and the casings of the stomp boxes must be bypassed as well. The off and on switches on the stomp boxes just bypass the positive connections. Yet the casings and the braided shields of the cables must have a good ground source to be operable when the units are turned on. Yet if the grounds are isolated from the guitar the noise and dulling effect are less. So if the ground source for the stomp boxes are using the power supply adapter for the ground, then it's not going through the guitar and the majority of the problem is solved.
And the little bypass box works pretty well.
Dennis

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