MIDI steel now available

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 May 2000 7:57 am

In the off topic folder the John Birch society was being discussed, and somebody mentioned that there is a luther in England with the same name who makes MIDI equipped pedal steel guitars. Here is a link.

http://www.johnbirchguitars.demon.co.uk/products.htm

Does anybody know anything about these instruments?

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 10 May 2000 8:08 am

Also nice for making TAB

JJ

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STEELDAYS 2000
my web-site
my band COD

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 10 May 2000 8:23 am

Mike, I inquired about that long ago and he likes to put the Midi on the guitar himself and wanted at that time to sell me a single 12 MSA with the Midi on it. Or you can send your guitar to him for mounting. I didn't want to do that.....al

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 May 2000 8:39 am

Cool! Lets get one!
Can we get this guy to St.Louis for a demo?!

Anyone catch the guys email or phone number? I didn't see it.

I have some european gigs coming up June 1st thru 11th. I'll try to hook up with the guy.
It would be good if he brought some stuff to St.Loius though, for onsite installs, if the thing works that is.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 10 May 2000 10:02 am

It may not be all it's cracked up to be-

talk to John Fabian at Carter PSG before making any decisions about buying into this proprietary system.

If one is compelled to MIDIfy steel, one might be better off to adapt 2 Roland guitar based systems to steel, or to keep looking for the rare and wonderful IVL SteelRider.

The JB website basically indicates that they want to sell you a steel with the system already installed (MSA)- it is apparently not readily adaptable to put on an existing guitar.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 May 2000 10:46 am

I posted this because a lot of players are interested in MIDIing their guitars, but my personal feeling is that MIDI (Which BTW stands for Musicians In Definitely In debt) is best left to keyboard players. Why should we replace, or even dilute the unique sounds of our instrument with those available to any keyboard players?

Here in L.A. MIDI is so commonplace I expects somebody to come out with a nose pickup and controller so when you sneeze it will trigger a synth.

If or when I want MIDI sounds on a recording I'll do them or have them done on a keyboard.

erik · Post by **erik** » 10 May 2000 1:29 pm

Mike P. wrote:<blockquote>
Why should we replace, or even dilute the unique sounds of our instrument with those available to any keyboard players?
</blockquote>
Because of unique attack and movement that can not be accurately simulated from a keyboard controller.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 10 May 2000 9:18 pm

Pete and Mike, check your Email. Pete I gave you the web and email for the Midi company. "if I want a keyboard , I'll get a keyboard" . That is the whole idea of the Midi, let the STEEL be the steel AND the keyboard. More jobs for steel players. They can then say, I play steel and keyboard. That just might put a few Keyboard players out of work. The steel players are getting pushed out now by keyboard players. Have you seen many bands without keyboards.? How about have you seen lately bands without steel.? Figure it out. There is a lot of working steel players that would like to have a Midi if only the price came down enough to afford it. With the electronics of today and cheap computer chips, there is no reason why a good low priced Midi for steel could not be built.Look at Band in a Box, $88.00 That is actually a Midi. Just get some pickups and hook it to the steel somehow and who knows?....al

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 11 May 2000 12:48 am

I've been a midi guitar player almost since the beginning of it all. (in fact, I was even a "Guit-organ" player before that.) I can see all the points of view here as valid.

Never having tried a midi steel though, it's seems like it's gotta be even more a challenge ( or a pain in the a**) than a regular six string...."Tracking" the steel's glisses, "mis-triggering" glitches... etc.

One really cool thing that a "hex pickup" based midi triggering device can do that a synth keyboard can't do is LAYER a midi signal and the straight pickup & string sound together. That alone is enough reason not to write off the whole idea of midi for steels & guitars.

Right now for regular six string midi, the state of the art (IMHO)is made by the Axon company...the tracking is WAY better than the Roland type units. A different "Neural Net" technology...but still using the hex type pickups. I'm curious if the Birch system is basically just a spin off of the Roland idea.

kevin grissom · Post by **kevin grissom** » 11 May 2000 2:22 am

I talked to the birch guitar company and they will install the pickup system on any guitar, the only thing i didn't like was they said they would have to move the regular pickup on the steel in one direction or another, so the midi pickup could be mounted where it was suppose to be! I was scared that is would effect the tone of the steel guitar to have that done. Do you guy's think it would change the tone alot?

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 11 May 2000 2:30 am

Al, you are right on with your comments!
If there ever is a missing link between steel players having a lot more jobs it is having a midi hookup!
This is the most underrated "effect" available in the world.
Let me tell you, it is quite a challenge to play riffs like a piano player would or countermelody like a string section or funky organ parts. It opens up a whole NEW dimension in musicianship and definitely makes a steel player more useful.
I do not look at it as compromising the sound of the steel, just ADDING to it!

Dan Dowd · Post by **Dan Dowd** » 11 May 2000 4:44 am

I think some of you are missing the real advantage of MIDI. Just think for a moment of the pitch shift wheel on most keyboards where you could raise or lower a note 1 or 2 tones. I envision a guitar with unlimited copendents by using this type of technology. If we were to have this pitch wheel setup connected to the pedal's on our steels you could by telling a computer program what strings you wanted to raise or lower even while playing a song. Also you would not have to worry (for those who worry about this stuff)about cabinet drop or changer tunning because of MIDI, it would not be bothered by any of this. I have thought about this system for many years now and I think this is the next logical step for the steel to take. With the ever changing technology today it is a real posibility that I or someone else will develop this to reality in the near future. The posibilities of of MIDI, in this inviroment, are endless, and MIDI technology keeps improving. [This message was edited by Dan Dowd on 11 May 2000 at 05:46 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 11 May 2000 6:46 am

I'm probably going to get a MIDI setup, after I heard Robert Randolph play his IVL setup (he is a young virtuoso steel player in the Sacred Steel tradition). My justification for doing so is that I don't really want to take the time to learn piano technique, when I already have a lot to go learning steel technique. And there are a lot of recordings I do at home in which a standard steel sound isn't the best (especially in creating music with my 11 year old daughter, who doesn't want to hear anything like a steel behind her singing).

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www.tyacktunes.com

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 11 May 2000 8:47 am

Check out my ad in Buy and Sell!

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Jim Smith
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 11 May 2000 10:04 am

This is a good thread.Tony and Dan, I certaintly agree with you and it seems like a lot of steel players are realizing that is the next step for more jobs in more expanded places to play. If someone can come up with a good one for a few hundred dollars for steel guitar. Watch out! I have played piano and I think that I play better steel than piano, so I would like a midi and play piano on my steel. Don't forget there is a ON and OFF switch on it, you can use when you want pure steel. Same as the lock on the S12. I believe all builders should automatically put the lock on all S12 guitars as standard equipment. I have heard my friend Jimmy Yates with his Midi on his PP Emmons many times. And he used it a lot on the C6 neck . He played a lot of little licks , chords, and runs, and you would swear there was a piano player up there...al

pdl20 · Post by **pdl20** » 11 May 2000 12:21 pm

i have the ivl and have used it alot.its a change to be able to play a hammond b3 sound on a rock and roll song and then do a real nice string pad under the singer or while the lead guitar takes a ride .also it drives the people nuts trying to find the piano or sax player.i used it on a couple of cuts on my new album,cd.( classic-n-steel).get it from bobs fourm products here on the forum.

Henning Kock · Post by **Henning Kock** » 11 May 2000 12:36 pm

May 11, 2000
Hello Johan Jansen from Holland. You mentioned this midi device on a steel guitar also could be nice making TAB. How can this be done? I only see it can make musical notation?
All the best
Henning from Denmark www.geocities.com/nashville/1520
henningkmusic@hotmail.com

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 11 May 2000 1:22 pm

I started out on a Vox organ guitar,then got into Guitorgans when they came out and even schlepped a Leslie around for 10 years or so to complete the illusion.So I have no philosophical position against one instrument emulating another.Hell,piano players do it.When the first midi guitars came out like the Roland GR707 etc,I tried one but found I could "outplay" it-in terms of lag.So I stayed with the Guitorgan for this reason-it didn't use midi OR pitch sensing,but fret switching.I always thought steel would make a great platform for driving other sounds but unfortunately,there was no Guitorgan type equivalent for steel players.Another thing that kept me away from midi steel at first was the question of which neck to put it on.It seemed like too much effort AND money to put midi pickups on both necks and then have to devise a 10x2 channel neck switching matrix of relays or whatever.Once I switched to a 12 string universal,then it made sense to do it.So in 1994 I ponied up $650 for a used IVL 12 string system(thanx Dave Ristrim)and a Roland JV880 synth module.It does lag but it CAN be played.It's definately gotten me more work.It's elevated me from the 5th piece in a 4 piece band to the 4th piece in a 4 piece band if you get my drift.It also allows me to play in a lot of non-country situations where a little steel goes a long way.And just for the record,I have a change lock AND midi-and I've been known to use them simultaneously.So there! -MJ-

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 11 May 2000 2:40 pm

What M.J. said is very true...doubling on midi guitar has gotten me alot more work than I probably would've gotten without it. The really beautiful part is that I've gotten quite a few gigs with bands that normally wouldnt have considered hiring a steel player....blues, jazz, alternative etc.

Michael....have you checked out the Axon system yet? Supposedly you can still use the standard hex pickup with it. They used to have a demo with John McGlauglin (sp?) playing 32nd notes on his low E string without causing it to mis-fire....very cool!

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 11 May 2000 11:01 pm

Ok I have done a very little exploration of this area, but have found that you can get a Roland GV-30 system including a 6 string MIDI pickup and what looks to be a decent sound module for $600 at Musician's Friend. Why wouldn't I just pick up a pair of these and hook them up to one of my steels? What's the down side?

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www.tyacktunes.com

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 12 May 2000 1:33 am

Mike..........you have to 'dilute'.

Can't play steel or keyboards without
'DILUTION'. Just ask Sammy Gibson.

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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 12 May 2000 3:04 am

Dan, the 6 string guitar pickups are curved to match the radius of the neck.
Since they don't lie flat, there is a varying distance to each string on the steel and this causes glitches in the tracking.
You would have to flatten them out somehow, not to mention figuring out a way to hook two of them together to track 10-12 strings.
Not the easiest project to do....

Mylos Sonka · Post by **Mylos Sonka** » 12 May 2000 4:10 am

Like EdP, I use a Roland GR-1 and I've overcome a number of problems installing the GK-2A midi pickup on my pedal steel.

The basic problem is that the best location for the pickup is up close to the bridge. You may find that the regular steel pickup is located so close to the bridge that you can't fit the GK-2A in there, since the string spacing is so much tighter than on standard guitar, the pickup must be slanted.

Ed Packard came up with the ingenious solution of using a strip of magnetic tape to position, and reposition, the pickup. I use fingerpicks just beyond the steel pickup, so the midi pickup had to be located even farther away to avoid hitting it with my picks. It sounded terrible, because it was too far from the bridge.

Additionally, the GK-2A is curved, to follow the curve of most standard guitar bridges. I carefully bent open the metal tabs retaining the six string sensors, removed the sensors and flattened out the metal casing in a vise. When I had it put back together it worked much better, with less sensitivity compensation needed in the GR-l individual string programming section.

However better it was, though, it was still not good enough to use reliably without glitches sure to embarrass you in public.

I made up an aluminum frame to hold the midi pickup in place over the strings UPSIDE DOWN AND ABOVE the regular pickup. It is nested inside a channel so that the pickup may be postitioned over any six strings (or seven if you cheat a little), then held in place with machine screws so it won't jiggle or get knocked out of its optimal position. I feared that the fields might interact in unacceptable ways, but not so. It works great!

This upside-down-and-over solution was described to me over the phone by Maurice Anderson. What I came up with is no doubt not as cosmetically pleasing as Maurice's setup, but I am very satisfied with the reliability.

Now if I can only learn to play the durn thing....

An even better solution would be to rebuild the GK-2A, or convince Roland to manufacture it, so that the string spacing and width would permit it to be installed perpediculary to the strings, between the bridge and the guitar pickup.

Good luck.

Mylos

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 12 May 2000 7:14 am

Back in the mid-eighties, forumite PeeWee Charles did a recording featuring the IVL Steelrider, which he had input into the development. I thought that it was a cool idea and the concept of job enhancement seemed valid but the cost was too prohibitive for me to consider. Last summer at a festival, I saw a local steeler playing thru some MIDI device and the whole time that he was playing, I was saying to my companion, "I sure wish he'd just play steel". I hear so little of it compared to keyboard sounds. Unbeknownst to me, his wife was beside me and piped up that she agreed. It's not that I have anything against technology, I just would rather hear a STEEL!